Non Verditius Aprentice Verditius Aprentice

OK, so my Verditius mage has good Teacher, and fives or better in most Arts, and is making an effort to get 5 or better in the rest. To some extent, this makes taking an apprentice as something to be explored. On the other hand, he is not all that fond of his house and the tendency of its members to be overwhelmed with pride. He has no interest in increasing his Verditius Lore.

So, how much trouble would he be in with his house if he took an apprentice but didn’t induct him into his house, with the agreement with another mage to take him five or six years. Something along these lines...

Year one, open Arts of Apprentice, who has Intelligence +2
Year two, Teach Magic Theory, Quality Level 17, Intelligence +2, Magic Theory 2
Year three, Teach Magic Theory, Quality Level 17, Intelligence +2, Magic Theory 3
Year four, Teach Magic Theory, Quality Level 17, Intelligence +2, Magic Theory 4
Year five, Teach Magic Theory, Quality 18, Intelligence +2, Magic Theory 4
Year 6, transfer apprentice to another mage.

A related question. The Verditius is a bit of a Vim specialist, and reaching an Intellego Vim Lab Total of 20 is pretty easy. So, would it be reasonable for him to find someone with the Second Sight ability to teach the apprentice the Second Sight ability before he opens the arts?


He's basically saying that he doesn't think House verditius has any value/future/reason to be kept around.

None, some or lots of trouble would ensue. If you made a private deal with a Bonisagus to claim your apprentice and the deal was kept secret, there would be nothing your House could say or do. Bonisagi have the right to take other people's apprentices to further their important work. An Int +2 is kind of low for a Bonisagus, so there might have to be something to sweeten the deal.

If it got out that you dumped the apprentice off on another House before teaching him the secrets of Verditi magic because he wasn't suited to be a Veditius magus, then there might be some trouble for you, but not much.

If you told the members of your House, you guys are a bunch of pretentious self-important jerks and my apprentice and I want nothing to do with you and your House, then expect a vendetta or six.

It's all in your cover story...

I don't see any problem with it at all really, though the reasons behind it do somewhat matter yeah. I'm pretty sure I remember in some of the books that it's not that unheard of for apprentices to be passed around somewhat for their early training.. some magi are happy to admit that others might be better teachers of certain forms and such.. and not every magus can open students arts without damaging some of their supernatural abilities.

Personally I'd say the most Verditius thing to do would be to train the other magi's apprentice at a cost of vis ^^

I imagine if you told members of your house that you didn't want your apprentice to join you'd have to explain two things: why they would make an undesirable member and what you plan to do with them near the end of their apprenticeship.

This is probably easier for a Mystery Cult than any other, and in the case of Verditius magi then it could be as simple as the apprentice having no craft skill of worth. You can argue that it's your responsibility to take in a gifted child and start his apprenticeship but you'll be arranging for him to join a different house depending on what abilities manifest.

First Question: Does the other Magi know he is getting damaged goods? - His new apprentice won't be able to cast spells without casting tools...
Second question: Do you really want a Magus, that ten years down the road, is going to be really :smiling_imp: at you for....?
A) abandoning him
B) Not teaching him a way of dealing with this Flaw (Enchanted Casting tools)

If your character is so upset with his house he should do one of several things:

  1. join Ex-Misc and be done with it...
  2. Join a covenant somewhere out of the way and ignore the rest of the house...
  3. work towards changing their ways...(lots of luck on that one)
  4. Deal with it.

Another line of thought...

Your character should rethink himself....
You say he has no interest in the rest of his house, and that he has no interest in learning more Verditus Cult Lore?
Does this character plan on learning any more of the house mysteries?
-If so, he had better rethink his ways, because nobody will teach him...

As a side not about being a "non conforming rebel", that messes with the house...
In our game, a Bonisagus announced plans to publish his discovery of the workings of Certain Verditius SECRETS...
After a brief council, fifty-two Wizard War declarations were delivered to his door on the next moon...
-He hired council and was given two choices: Join the house or destroy his work...with proof...
He settled.

You can handle it anyway you wish (of course), but remember, you only have a Vim lab total of 20, and a lot of arts below ten....
How long would you last against the FURY of the House?

My understanding is that the limitation regarding casting tools comes from how Verditius were initiated. Since I am not initiating the apprentice as a Verditius, why would they pick up the casting tools flaw? No bonuses from Verditius runes, no working crafting ability scores into Lab totals, but no penalties either.

My Verditius doesn't want to initiate into the inner mysteries, they all seem to cause people to gain the sin of pride. My character has the Major version of Pious and wants to avoid that temptation. I don’t want to initiate him into the inner mysteries, I know they cause the Hubris flaw, and this doesn’t fit with my character concept. Without the inner mysteries, it follows he is beneath the notice of most Verditius mage, since he does not have the portfolio of work that they would have. A vendetta assumes equal standing. and my Verditius would just apologize if involved in a vendetta, and take it to the Quaesitors if they kept it up anyway. Yes, that might trigger a Wizards War and that would squish my little Verditius flat. On the other hand, the Quaseitors might complain about Wizards Wars being used to settle legal questions.

If I take comments here as representative, some Verditius would shrug their shoulders and get on with life, some would be offended and my character would have a bad reputation with them, and some would be really offended and try to do him harm. Which, if you think there are 100 mages in a tribunal, and about 1/12 are Verditius, means around 8 Verditius in a tribunal and then only two or three that are really going to care enough to do something about it, and even then may not want to put that many resources into it.

As for just joining House Ex Miscellaneous, the house puts price controls on its members, that keep them from selling items below the price set by the Primus. I figure that is more of an issue than apprentices, and my Verditius leaving the house would free him from that constraint. I don’t think asking to leave is an option.

It sounds to me like you character isn't very impressed not only with the houses' inner secrets but also with his house's attitudes.

there are three other mystery houses and four societates all of which might be interested in another like minded magus. Does your character have a mind like any of them do?

I'm certain that if your character does all of the heard work of opening an apprentice's arts and teaching him magic theory that you'd have no problem finding a willing magus or maga to reap nine years of the benefit of your hard work from him or her but why on earth would you want to give the apprentice up at that point? for three seasons a year they can
extract vis or
copy lab texts into readable formats for trade (either your texts or the one's you've traded for)or
act as a lab assistant or
copy books for trade (albeit with a lower quality)or
be sent off to do tasks that you don't wish to do or
create casting tablets, or even
write crappy tractatus in the one art where you've got an affinity and you've already read every book available to you or
invent a bunch of low level spells that you've been meaning to get to then make readable copies so that you can learn the whole mess of them in a single season or
learn a ritual of little practical use to you but that they can cast for other magi who then pay you for the service or
hit the lore books looking for legends of vis sources while you get to collect xp in something
practice a spell you fancy for three seasons then have them write a spell mastery tractatus for you (both to use and trade)

an apprentice of six years is too valuable a resource to let go.

that is my take on it as well

If the apprentice is going to stay in the house why not initiate him into the mystery yourself ? What do you, the apprentice, or anyone else apart from the new mentor gain by transferring the apprentice to another magus/maga? I'm missing your motivation.

You wish to take the time to find a gifted child, teach her enough to become a useful lab assistant, and then give the child away?

Hmm - apart from those wishing to shape the mentality of the child, most would be very thankful for your gift...
As for your house, why would they care?
However, you might get a bad reputation in the order - since you're obviously incapable of teaching an apprentice fully...

Since you haven't left the house yourself, you can't have that much against them, and that makes me wonder why you don't just keep the apprentice and try to improve the house from within.

As for why my character would take in an apprentice and then give him away just when he became most useful. Some Verditius want to create as powerful a sword as they can, or as powerful a suit of armor, or wand or whatever. Those are just things. I want to help someone reach their full potential as a magus. If the magi I am involved with training are more powerful than other magi of the same age, and they pick up my values in the five years I have them, my values become propagated thoughout the Order.

As for why not raise the apprentice completely as a Verditius…In character, he had a bad experience with his first parens, mitigated when that parens went into Final Twilight and let him learn by reading for 10 years before the Order noticed. Then he was passed to another Verditius to complete his apprenticeship, which meant he learned a lot about the personalities of different Verditius mages, and he concluded that the house turns you into prideful fools. He is not going to learn the Verditius Cult Lore he needs to initiate anyone into his house. And he is pretty sure that training an apprentice who can’t complete the house gauntlet is a Low Crime.

As for joining another house, like I said, I think this is problematic with rules about selling items. Or maybe not, since it is obvious the former Verditius had not gained any inner mysteries and the items that he does produce are too few and too minor to worry about. House Jerbiton might work, especially if I build the stained glass windows that act out stories from the bible. House Flambeau is a bad fit and House Tytalus? Not in a billion to the power of a trillion years.

Can't you just have someone else in the house act as the mistigauge (sp?) for his initiation?

Ill bet the magi probably can negotiate that. Perhaps by a promise of strictly adhering to the rules and not teaching anyone outside Verditius any secret stuff he may have.
Of course, it doesnt have to be easy... :wink:

Go for Jerbiton or Ex Miscellanea.

If memory serves, house Criamon accepts refugees from the other houses (without initiating them into the house's own mysteries).
And if nothing else, house ex-misc tends to take anyone.

These two sound like your best shot, unless you actually share philosophy with some house..
Offcourse, having a friend in another house that could act as a sponsor would be sufficient...

Your former house probably wouldn't be too happy about it, but then, odds are that you're not their favorite in any event. Some magi might consider items made by a Verditius more worth than those of a non-verditius, but this shouldn't be a big issue.

And if you haven't been initiated into deep secrets, they might let you get away with it. Especially if you are unwilling to spread their philisophy. Although there are always someone who takes offence.

I play a Jerbiton architecht who is gunning jo join Verditius in order to ease Hermetic Architechture (whenever he gets around to learning that), so I'm going the other way. Jerbiton are a loose organization so it shouldn't be a a problem here.

I had not considered that, and it is an idea. Have to find a sutable Verditius and find some way to pay him for his season or two of work. Out of character, not sure I am willing to make a 15 year commitment, since I am moving in May, which would change my one hour one way commute to the game to a 14 hour commute one way.