Old Flambeau vs New Flambeau

Hi everyone.

So, I know that Flambeau the Founder's origin was rewritten for ArM5. And I have read Project Redcap's short summary of the character. But what I don't really know is: what changed?

I know some people on this board are really passionate about the subject, and I see that debate represented in FAITH & FLAME by tension between competing visions of the Founder. But I guess I don't have a good conception of Old Flambeau to compare the New one too.

I do have various books from pre-5th edition Ars, so if you would like to give me a specific page reference in an old book which describes Old Flambeau and what was lost in the transition to 5th edition, I'm happy to look those references up.

Thanks everyone!

The Iberian Tribunal book has a section on Flambeau starting on page 33. That's 3rd though, isn't it?

It is

Also there's a description of Flambeau in "Order of Hermes", 3rd edition, where he's depicted as a straightforward warmonger. The new version of F. makes him a skilled diplomat and a fervent believer in the principles of the Order instead.

First off, thank you to those who have replied, and I appreciate the pointers towards Iberia.

But I remain convinced that there is something we are missing. Old Flambeau was more violent, New Flambeau more diplomatic. Fair enough. But there are some who have taken the loss of Old Flambeau as a serious loss to Ars Magica. Clearly, there was SOMETHING in Old Flambeau that they felt was important enough that, having lost it, we had to work that conflict in to FAITH & FLAME as a tension within the House, a conflict over how Flambeau the Founder is remembered.

I think I understand what we gained when we got New Flambeau. But what did we lose? Just a "warmonger"?

Marko Markoko is probably the best one to ask. He's such a big Flambeau fan, that he put a lot of that into Faith & Flame, as I recall.
Between his PbP game and RL, he only hits the main forum sporadically...

Well, it seems that I have the opportunity to clarify my position and explain my vision.
First off, Flambeau was a warrior, not a war monger. He had a specific cause. And both versions can be seen as having the same end result. My perceptions of old House Flambeau was not so far off from the current version in many respects. I championed this idea back in the 90s on the Berklist. However, I had more of an Iberian rather than a Frankish spin. More Caballero than Knight.
My main and primary issue with the fifth edition of Flambeau is that of Continuity and History. The definitive Iberian character, the Mercurian connection through Delendar, the last stand, Delendos the final survivor. All of that. It was a simple yet rich back story that formed the basis of a rich tapestry of potential.
Now, some may be surprised to know that I actually enjoy much of what is contained in Societates. I just honestly feel it would have been better to add and combine rather that delete and change. To be brutally honest, I think the new origin story is very poorly written and smacks of so much I am philosophically opposed to. And I just don't like it. Where we once had a sullen hero with a name and ethnic identity that modern players in the US can relate to. He is replaced with a no-name foppish dandy. Old Flambeau is like Batman played or voiced by Christian Bale or Keven Conroy. New Flambeau is Clooney or Kilmer. (West is somewhere in the middle because of nostalgia points).
i have other stupid issues. I hate the cult of Mithras. I was against the initial "Frankish-ization" of early fifth edition (something which has changed and is much improved for it). I really liked the story of the tragedy of Delendos and the Final Stand of Reculed. Nostolgia again? Perhaps. But I had been tapping off that vein of history for years and I like continuity. I also have a passion for Iberian history, inspired by that old thrid edition source book to study it in detail.
Am I talking in circles?
I stumbled on this in surprise and did not ready a formal argument.
But I will share this! History of House Flambeau
It is unfinished, but it clearly outlines my vision and harmonization.

As for in-game effects for historical dispute, it relates to the standing divisions within the House as already established in previous fifth edition material. There are questions about his vulgar identity and ultimate fate, and these can be easily used to manipulate others. But foremost there is a cult/lineage division. Mithraic versus Mercurian. It involves lineage more so that mystery. In Provencal, which has the highest concentration of Flambeau magi and both cults/lineages have strong bases, this dispute creates rich story potential. Power struggles, politics, open conflicts or diplomacy, opportunities for ambitious players, and much more
There is also the interplay between three important Flambeau covenants in that Tribunal: Castra Solis, Aedas Mercuri (Doisettep), and Lost Val-Negra. Why lost? What happened? And what prevents the other two from forming a unified super power?


Both Flambeaus are faeries.

The true, historical Flambeau (if there was one) remains to be discovered. Perhaps by you!




If you meet Flambeau on the road, multicast FEO

Great stuff, Marko. Will be really useful for my saga. I'm looking forward to reading the rest of it.