Old Variant Parma Rules, Posted By Request

Toss around to your hearts pleasure! Dont however expect me to agree that somethings is coherent and logical when it clearly isnt.

Agreed, but not just for divine and certainly not for ALL divine!!!
That would wreak havoc with any story set anywhere around a place with [insert general holy person here].
A strong faerie on homeground, or a very strong magical creature or person may have the ability as well to some degree or other.

Sophistry. And i most certainly DONT like the idea of having MR that can reach anywhere, and possibly anytime.

Thats totally illogical and incoherent. :confused: Intention doesnt matter unless it matters except when it doesnt matter is what you´re saying.

Yes it does. As Fixer says, it will still come down to GM ruling.
I dont mind that at all, thats how we handle it anyway, but my problem is that you claim such to be not needed because the system is claimed as totally coherent. And it isnt.

Depending on what weather you start out with, if you change it one way or another, then you set up the conditions for how the weather "proceeds" and unless something else interferes, oh yes it IS inevitable. Neither the magi or anyone else directly involved is likely to have the faintest clue about it, so what you´re saying is that MR is either precognisant or intelligent and omniscient.

Sorry, have you ever had someone do serious powerplaying in whatever group(s) you play with? The idea that indirect MR would be a level playground is NOT realistic. You will soon find yourself looking at characters supported by M Might 50+ MR AND a strong PM added behind that shield.
Add some good defensive items, wards or spells and you WILL find yourself with invincible characters. And once one person does it, just wait and see how long it takes for someone else to catch on.
The basic idea here would be that someone pledges to an angel or maybe a strong faerie lord, spending enough time yearly to be "important" for them meaning that any attack on the character is an indirect attack on their protector, which means THEIR MR will be triggered.
How does total MR in the 100-200 range sound? Before Form bonuses...

Oh i dont dislike them all or anything, its your claim about their coherency and how they work that im unhappy about.
When it comes to MR and many things like that, we have already long LONG since come to the conclusion that there just isnt any way around leaving it up to the GM. Its such a troublesome matter that trying to create any single coherent system totally without exceptions creates "BAD SITUATIONS" one way or another.

The Realms are not intended to be balanced. The Divine trumps all. I have absolutly no problem with (insert holy character) trumping all over the plans and designs of magi. Don't mess with the big G!

And you don't have to agree with any of this, but others enjoy it. I specifically requested he repost this (the original was back in 04 I think)?

Put it this way, I actually don't use this and I don't think Ken does either, but they are interesting concepts to ponder. Try making counter-points instead of counter-arguments.

And, even if you hate every alternative idea presented, the debate will make your knowledge of Ars much stronger. Ars Magica is like an Ability, kinda like Magic Theory. You get xp's every season depending on how intense your Ars activities were those three months. I'm not sure where my score is at though.

Hmmmm... Interesting idea....
An Ars Magica Trivia game :slight_smile:
Rate our scores.

Question: 1st edition Ars Magica was originally designed as an optional set of magic rules for what major RPG?

You misunderstand me(now thats a novelty, NOT! ).

Im in no way wishing him to not have posted it or something, but me not having a good alternative shouldnt mean i cant post about problems with his system.
At the same time, some parts are very interesting and potential house rules.

And a little clarification/extension:

Ok this was said to not be caused by MR acting as a protective aura, but as canceling out the effect because it targeted the being/mage with MR.
So, the only thing the attacker needs to do then is to NOT target the being with high MR, allowing him/her/it to decimate all allies of the being with high MR just as easily as with RAW.

Of course, the alternative could be to use the "indirect MR" effect and allow this to extend to the mage´s underlings, because an attack on them is indirectly an attack on the mage.

Does this then for example mean that if it is fated(inevitable) that a person to come will become a saint, preemptively provides MR either him/her-self(even before the person being born, as otherwise fate would end up smashed) or by being in direct servitude to an angel, for everyone needed to bring about his/her´s birth or becoming a saint?

As belief in fate is most definetly a part of the paradigm, the above question isnt insane, as "fated" is inevitable.
How far do we take it before an exception becomes required?

Ok. Reposting the core rules:

B) When does Magic Resistance apply?

Magic Resistance applies at the moment when an entity possesses a Magic Resistance score greater than or equal to the Penetration of a supernatural effect, the supernatural effect does not originate from the entity, and at least one of the following conditions is true:

  1. The entity or part of the entity is the target or part of the target of the supernatural effect.

  2. The entity or part of the entity is the indirect object or part of the indirect object of a Rego effect

  3. At the moment the supernatural effect would come into being, the target of the effect would either immediately or eventually and inevitably touch or act upon the entity through natural action in the absence of any intervention as a result of the supernatural effect.

  4. The target of the supernatural effect is explicitly defined in relation to the entity or part of the entity.

If an entity fails to resist a supernatural effect, it does not get another chance to resist unless its Magic Resistance score increases above the score that failed, and Magic Resistance would otherwise apply.

At the end of its duration, a supernatural effect no longer exists to be resisted.


Intent doesn't really matter here, in the sense of "this magic is intended to harm/change/affect someone." Intent obviously matters in a degenerate sense: A magus cannot cast a spell without intent (barring some Twilight effect), target something without intent, and so on. Intent also obviously matters for criterion #4. Even here, the issue isn't intent but reference.

In the first example that disturbed you, I was trying to say that even though the magus intends to harm the dragon, his intention is not relevant. The magic is not described in terms of the dragon (triggering #4), does not have the dragon as the indirect object of the magic (regardless of whether the magus realizes this) and will not inevitably affect the dragon. #1? No. #2? No. #3? No. #4? No. Thus, the dragon does not get MR.

On to the wine. Magus A intends to poison magus B. He transforms poison into wine. B cannot resist this. He hands the goblet of wine to B. B cannot resist this (except in the sense of making a personality roll to refuse the wine :>). B drinks the wine. Still nothing to resist, because none of the four criteria apply.

Whenever an issue of "does MR apply" arise, walking through the four criteria will answer it.




Or, to use a Talmudic analog, garmi is resisted, grammah is not. :slight_smile: