On Intellego Imaginem, Species, and Magic Resistance

This question goes on Intellego Imaginem sensing-at-a-distance spells and resistance. Reading the Intellego, Imaginem, and Magic Resistance parts in the core book as well as reading the various entries on Forceless Casting in the HoH:TL I wasn't entirely certain on a couple of details.

This is what I could gather so far:

-I presume that other non-imaginem spells used to detect an entity with MR will always be resisted. E.g. an InCo or InMe detection spell, or an InAu (Ears of the Bat) for instance.
-I also presume that Intellego Imaginem spells will be resisted by MR if the spell is targeted directly at/through someone using an Arcane Connection to a target with MR to see/hear/etc. the surroundings at the target's location. Or if using the entity with MR is the entermediate you are using for range of the spell. E.g. casting a R:Touch T:Group spell touching someone with MR to cast it as the member of said group.
-I also presume that many intellego imaginem spells will not be resisted by MR, for as long as all they are doing is to 'collect' the Species emitted by the otherwise MR protected entity. E.g. watching a location with someone with MR present though not through an Arcane Connection on the MR protected person

  • Let me know if any of these assumptions are false or incomplete (and why).

But then there are those I'm truely in doubt about:
-Will the spell be resisted if using T:Room to look into a room and if there is someone in that room with MR? E.g. Prying Eyes.
-Will spells used to 'zoom' on a person be resisted? E.g. Eyes of the Eagle

To elaborate, these questions are not as much prompted by a situation of whether one of these spells would succeed or not, but by a question of keeping within the Code in terms of not scrying. These questions are based on a Guernici apprentice wanting to use Forceless Casting to avoid breaching anyone's privacy (even if knowing that he will only be spotted if someone with MR resists his spell and even if he, as an apprentice, for better or worse is not entirely bound to the Code in the same sense as a member of the Order).

Intelelgo Imaginem therically shouldn't be resisted. With a exemption, the area has Magical resistence like with the Aegis. But furthemore is freally. You should think abaout the way in that the Species work with the senses. The only ecemption is when change the species that a subject should creat, or the way in that do it; like Muto or Rego. But including a spell that create species, don't need penetrate.
I think too that a Arcane Conection o need penetrate, only the spell,and i the spell works the way that don't need penetrate, like the species, don't need peentrate nor with that range.

I'm in agreement here.

I think of the first scenario as putting a sensor in the room to collect all of the species, so no IMO it wouldn't be resisted.

Eyes of the eagle, from my reading of the spell, is sharpening the eyesight of the caster. the caster sees as if he or she had preposterously acute eyesight. Using this model, it isn't the spell that is zooming in, it is the caster. Ergo, MR doesn't apply.

Thank you very much for the responses so far. It helped me a great deal - and then just formulating a post asking a question often in itself helps toward greater clarity.

I think that what threw of us, were the numerous quotes here and there (HoH:TL especially) of how Forceless Casting could ensure that you didnt by accident happen to scry on another magus. I know the chances of a magus happening to have an InVi spell up to spot InIm scrying might be small, but then the question is more of theory than practice, as the apprentice involved is the apprentice of a rather draconian traditionalist Guernicus. I am also aware that it would probably be rare to realise and even rarer for sanctions to be enforced on someone scrying another magus by accident - especially if stopping immediately if realised, but again here it's the letter of the law being applied by the character to his own actions.

Eyes of the Eagle is R: Personal, T: Vision. It is not directly affecting who is being seen; it is affecting the person seeing. Magic resistance for the person seeing applies, except that with R: Personal it bypasses your own magic resistance. A touch version, to give it to another person, could be resisted by that person, though.

Prying Eyes is harder. T: Room changes things. I would say everything in the room is being affected, and so each thing gets its magic resistance. I can completely understand other interpretations. However, I feel those interpretations should be more similar to Eyes of the Eagle, perhaps with a Rego requisite, allowing your point of view to move around. Then you could send your point of view into another place. I think this would be harder, but it would get past magic resistance.


Your sodales could put a pink dot defence on their sanctum, that sounds like a reasonable accommodation. Since Prying Eyes captures natural species, you have to block access to the room or remove those species to fix the issue.

I think that in the description of the spell "Eagle Eyes", the explanation is that it makes the vision of the Magus clearer and able to see things at a distance, by examining the species more clearly. Note that the guideline is the same that the spell "The Brushstrokes Revealed" of HoH:Societates (and the spells are similar). That spell allow you to see minuscule things by examining their species. So, affecting the species would be out of Magic Resistance.

In "Prying Eyes", the fact that you can change your viewpoint and that the spell is affected by light conditions, would suggest me that again, you are analizing the visual species of the room (and the target only defines the boundary of the analysis -the boundary of the spell, not the room itself). But it is fairly subjetive for me. Even affecting the room, Parma Magica and Magic Resistence wouldn´t protect the room from magic, only the magus or creature in cuestion. But the phrase "you can only see as much as you could if you were inside" suggest that if you were inside the room, you could see the Magus clearly so...

T:Vision spells does in fact affect the seen (as Hearing does those heard, taste those tas... well and so on) and Penetration will normally need to be remembered in case your enchanted sense connect with something with Magic Resistance.

E.g. a magus in our saga has invented a spell named Wise One's Vision of Vis - it is basically a InVi vis detection spell with a T:Vision, making him able to 'see' vis visually. Should he, however, meet another magus holding vis in his hand, he might see the physical object in that magus' hand, but his magical enhanced sight would only spot the vis if the penetration of this spell, otherwise cast on himself, penetrates the Magic Resistances of the magus he is observing (as transmitting information on vis is not a normal propery of emitted visual Species).

However, this might not hold true for Eyes of the Eagle, or rather hold true but not being applied in most circumstances, as most InIm spells do no affect the matter emitting the Spieces but is simply gathering them after they have left the Magic Resistance of an entity. I guess you in another word 'zoom' as close as possible to a person without actually ever breaking through their MR.

I'm beginning to get more clarity on the subject and it seems Eyes of the Eagle would rarely be resisted, though for different reasons than those you mentioned Chris.

I believe that the ability to move your point of perception is already described in the standard version of the spell, but I'm agreeing with you that a T:Room spell is affecting all of a room when being cast, even if the effect is only theoretical (no one in the room are directly affected by the Prying Eyes when it is cast). Once the spell is cast, and the point of perception can be moved around freely, then it might not interfere with any MR on anyone in the room anymore, as it is only 'collecting' Species.

I reckon this hinges on a generel question of T:Room spells and Magic Resistance. I must confess never having given it much thought. Would it be reasonable to say that a target Room is such a cathegory that if anything inside its parameter has MR then any spell with T:Room is resisted in the moment of casting, regardless of Technique or Form of the spell? If so then Prying Eyes would be resisted, but using a R:Arcane Connection InIm scrying spell on any one thing in the room (not in possession of the entity with MR) would be possible without being resisted by someone in the same room with MR?

I'm not sure what you mean, mainly because none of our magi are looking to protect themselves from scrying - this question was raised because one of them, a Traditionalist Guernici apprentice is worried about scrying by accident even if using Forceless Casting with a Prying Eye spell.

As for the good old pink dot bastard of MR, then I'm not sure what you are suggesting would make a difference (except maybe making your magus look extremely undignified): even Imaginem illusions, whether conjured up with Creo or changed with Muto, emit natural Species.

Agreed! And thank you for pointing out the HoH:Societas bit - I'll make sure to have a look at that too.

Agreed again.

But ironically I'm coming full circle. Started thinking it would be resisted extrapoling from the passages on Forceless Casting in the HoH:TL book, but something irked me so unsettled even I after some further reading I raised the question here, and looking at how many InIm pick up Species I was then leaning toward them never being resisted except with very few exceptions (e.g. if scrying from afar through an Arcane Connection and if this is to a person/object inside someone's Parma Magica). But now I'm a bit intrigued on how T:Room and resistances work. Because I agree that a Prying Eyes already in effect would not be resisted if looking on someone with MR and I believe casting spells into a room (w/o using T:Room) with someone with MR would never be resisted as such, but I'm unsure about how this transfers to actually using the T:Room and how T:Room and MR interact. I think I'll have to start a seperate discussion on that.

EDITED: I cancelled the idea of starting a thread on T:Room and MR, as already on formulating the opening post I found myself completely sweeping the rug on my own argument. The MR of one magus in a room should never resist magic cast on that room with T:Room no matter how being argued that being able to label it one Target makes it metaphysically whole, as it would then also be able to transfer this argument to T:Structure or T:Boundary... and who needed an Aegis in the first place? :smiley: As with T:Group someone's MR only resists the effect on them and not the effect at large, with the exception if they are the focal point of the Range of the spell (such as the caster R:Touch(ing) them to cast a T:Group spell or if using a R:Arcane Connection to cast a T:Structure spell and so on).

Basically a level 1 aegis Moon/Room. So yes you have to protect yourself from accidental scrying, a little like a wheelchair ramp.

ofcourse, this means changing parameters for the Aegis, making it a Hermetic Breakthrough :frowning:

make it a regular ward and problem solved. It does not need to be a "proper aegis" after all.