On Lab Texts, Breakthroughs, and Experimentation

[Ignes.Festivus]

Hi all,

AM provides for Magi so that they can use other researchers' Lab Texts on Breakthroughs to replicate spells/items, even without having obtained the corresponding Insight.

1. Does the Magus have to experiment to do this? (not specified in AM)

2. If yes to #1, can a Magus with a sufficiently high Lab Total so that he can invent more than one such effect in a Season create multiple effects that all/more-than-one require experimentation? (Core indicates you can invent multiple things in a Season, and that you can experiment in such a season, but not whether you can invent multiple things that each require experimentation in a Season or same time period)

3)If yes to #2, does he roll the simple die for Experimentation multiple times, or just once? What about on the Extraordinary Results Table? Once, or = however-many-effects-he's-inventing-in-the-season, applying all results to all things invented that season?

Thank you all in advance!

[KevinSchultz]

Not to learn the spell, no. (HMRE, pg. 16) -

"The effect produced in this way can be reproduced by other Hermetic magi. However, they can only do so if they have access to a Lab Text describing it, and it is not possible to vary the effect in any way; it must be reproduced exactly as it was initially created. Reproducing the effect in this way does not grant breakthrough points unless the producing magus also gains the relevant insight, whether from investigating the same item or from reading the original investigator's Lab Texts. It is possible to reproduce the effect first, and study the insight Lab Texts later."

EDIT - oh, to experiment in particular? Not that I'm aware of - only if there's some rule that says you have to experiment if you use a lab text that describes an Experimental creation. Unless there's a line that states otherwise, I'd argue that "it must be reproduced exactly as it was initially created" prevents any sort of Experimental roll.

EDIT II - or alternately, that you need to treat it like a regular Lab Text - ie, you get the spell it contains: no more, no less. I would argue that you could CHOOSE to experiment, just like with any other lab text - but at that point, you're stacking the original experiment on top of your own experiment. But I could also see a GM being strict with the "you must recreate it exactally" line.

[Ignes.Festivus]

@KevinSchultz

Not to learn the spell, no. (HMRE, pg. 16) -

"The effect produced in this way can be reproduced by other Hermetic magi. However, they can only do so if they have access to a Lab Text describing it, and it is not possible to vary the effect in any way; it must be reproduced exactly as it was initially created. Reproducing the effect in this way does not grant breakthrough points unless the producing magus also gains the relevant insight, whether from investigating the same item or from reading the original investigator's Lab Texts. It is possible to reproduce the effect first, and study the insight Lab Texts later."

EDIT - oh, to experiment in particular? Not that I'm aware of - only if there's some rule that says you have to experiment if you use a lab text that describes an Experimental creation. Unless there's a line that states otherwise, I'd argue that "it must be reproduced exactly as it was initially created" prevents any sort of Experimental roll.

EDIT II - or alternately, that you need to treat it like a regular Lab Text - ie, you get the spell it contains: no more, no less. I would argue that you could CHOOSE to experiment, just like with any other lab text - but at that point, you're stacking the original experiment on top of your own experiment. But I could also see a GM being strict with the "you must recreate it exactally" line.

So in your opinion, no experimentation needed. Thanks!
Sounds perfect, the magus is not interested in Experimentation at the moment, just learning the spells as quickly as possible. Later on will dedicate single seasons here and there to getting the Insight. The thing is the original researcher had to experiment to create these spells, and it left me wondering if using his notes my magus had to do so as well. It seems like transmitting knowledge through Lab Texts is less easy than one might expect.

[KevinSchultz]

Well, I believe the results of the experimentation itself is encoded in the lab text. For canonical examples of this, check out the folio descriptions in HoL:TL, pg. 23. It explicitly states that the reason the spells are included is because they have beneficial experimental side-effects. Now, it doesn't come out and SAY "...and if you learn these spells, you will also learn these side effects", but it would be kind of odd if you didn't.

EDIT - but yeah, the ability to transmit Insights through lab texts isn't as easy as it looks. However, there is a moderate benefit to using someone else's research: you don't need to invent the spell. Ie, it's possible to take more than one season on the original spell creation. Thus, if you're learning an insight from a Lab Text, it only takes 2 seasons max: one for the Insight, and one for the Spell. In contrast, someone who worked at it originally would have to take 2 seasons minimum: 1 (minimum) to find and learn the Insight, and at least 1 (minimum) to develop the spell. This last step could take 2 or more or however many seasons it takes to develop a spell normally.

So, there is some benefit to it - just not a lot.