OOC: Building the Tribunal Field

Well, it is free for a Redcap...

Fair enough, but my point is that there is no need to wait until 1223.1 to go get them.

Yes, there is. 1222 is over and done. I created 1223-1227 stretch precisely for the reason of giving the players a huge chunk of time and figuring out what they were going to do... There was, before this period started, ample time otherwise to go to Confluensis...

If you're going to say that 1222 is completely over, then why hasn't the year's worth of effort trading in 1222 been resolved yet? I posted the compiled list in January, and then reposted in this thread at the end of May. I realize that there's going to be some overlap with the stuff we get from Confluensis, but trade is a form of politics.

Things like acquiring mundane books on architecture from Valnastium indicate that we want to maintain ties to Andru after Apollodorus's death. The way in which the various other covenants respond to our trade requests (not just for lab texts, but also for the various mundane labors and furniture on that list) would indicate their awareness of and response to the attack on Mons Electi. Not to mention that we're going to have opinions about the other covenants based on what sort of gifts they donate to the A&S competition, and how they react to our other trade efforts.

As far as getting Renauld to Confluensis, do you need me to start a chapter where Theraphosa asks him to make that journey in Viscaria's place? It'd be cool to have other PCs in Confluensis when Lapis Crudis shows up, and once we have that list (and Fiona's trip to Durenmar is resolved), we'll have many reasons to interact with other covenants.

Right now, the only people we're interacting with outside of the covenant are people who show up because we don't know the other covenants enough to realize we might want something from them. Bringing Prospero into Alexei's chapter is a great example of this. So is introducing V to Lapis Crudis -- if Somnifer proves trustworthy, V could go looking for magi to swap in for them during the Tribunal.

Can you indicate that post? The only post I recall is something about trading with Phoenix, but it was OOC, and to my recollection Viscaria hasn't done anything IC to facilitate that trade. If there's something else, you can be sure that it has fallen off my radar, or it was discussed OOC and I didn't have a clear consensus from the players that was the direction desired. Your point about trade being a form of politics is correct, but I'm not sure where you're going with it. The reason 1222 is shut down is that I don't want to do any other stories for 1222. If you want to clarify a list of things you want in 1222 and how long you want them for, what you're willing to trade for them, we'll resolve it that way. If you want to go to Confluensis, it's waiting until 1223. Having a Hermes Portal to Harco isn't helpful for just popping into Confluensis in 1222 (or later), in any event. There isn't a direct portal between Harco and Confluensis. There is a portal from Confluensis to Magvillus, and from there they/travelers went to Harco, but Korvin destroyed thae portal between Harco and Magvillus in summer of 1222. I'll presume that Viscaria found this out when she popped to Harco on a whim one day to try and get to Confluensis. There is a portal between Dragon's Rest and Harco, but she wasn't informed of that, and if she does find out and come back, she'll be told that it's currently Redcaps and Mercere only.

Of course they are aware of the response and attack on Mons Electi; this is the reason Laetitia was invited to take Apollodorus's chair in Valnastium. A&S competition? I'm lost on that one. Again, if you want something from Andru, you need to ask for it, somehow... I don't recall a letter or anything being written to ask for something.

I need at least the player's agreement that he'll do the story. He's a Lone Redcap and has been for some time, you have to appeal to something other than his duty to the Order. He has a huge gaping need that needs to be addressed before too much longer, and that's all I'm going to say about that. I'm perhaps speaking for jebrick here, but that's the way I see it. Almost any other redcap you can ask and get them to do it out of a sense of duty (and a modest payment), but strangely since summer 1222 they've been less available to Mons Electi.

Ding! I had hoped the suggestion and mention of the Lotharingian Tribunal would have motivated players to become involved in the Normandy Tribunal, get to know their neighbors and all that. I'll be honest, all my dangling hooks are subtle, but this is the nature of a summer covenant, too. They should be go-getters, pushing their agenda out there. Yes, I have been pushing other story interests, too, but that's part of the problem of summer covenants and real life. Things get in the way of what you want to do; you have to make decisions on what is important and what gets priority...
To make an observation: this covenant is run like a poorly managed volunteer organization where most of the volunteers do one of three things: over-promise and under-deliver, pay attention to only their particular area of interest, treat it as a social club. Perhaps this is by design, and when I say design, I say that this was a possible outcome of setting the covenant up the way I did...

It's this entire thread, Jonathan. After hearing nothing in response to the list we generated collectively in the IC Tribunal Prep thread for six months, I collated the complete list, and then made separate posts with the design of the suggested spells, all of which was culled from the Tribunal Prep IC thread, in an effort to reduce your workload. After not hearing any response from you for nearly a month, I once again posted a request with link in this thread, and then continued to prod you at intervals about it.

This is extremely frustrating to me. I feel like I have done everything I can while still being polite about bringing this list to your attention. It is part of the reason why I post so rarely, because this list still hasn't been addressed in half a year and it is critical to my character's plans.

As far as doing it in character goes, you've been running a campaign where discussing an intention is usually the only thing you need to do to indicate that you want to begin that intention. Our PCs came up with a list of the sorts of spells we needed and then designed example versions that might be available for sale. I stated under seasonal activities thread that I was going to spend the year sending out inquiries about this list. I have repeatedly asked you for updates about it, especially when you started saying that we were closing 1222, to which you responded, "Oh, get the stuff from Confluensis first." If you wanted me to do it in character, then this was not clear to me until now, at which point you are saying that it is too late to go back.

I posted that in seasonal activities and didn't write any letters out to specific magi because at that point, I was still pretty new to the campaign and wasn't sure how much emphasis you wanted to place on it.

You indicated during the 1221 tribunal threads that the stuff at Confluensis wasn't valuable to Le Maison, and that they didn't use any of it. As lab texts for closely related items aren't useful, and lab texts for closely related spells are only useful if you memorize them first (and I don't know if I have time to memorize them), the only real value I perceive in going to Confluensis is the RP value (which is why I suggested that Renauld go and then Viscaria also stop by, and am now trying to double-down on this suggestion).

And to be perfectly, repetitively clear on this point, we developed a list and asked for it back in January and have been updating and maintaining it while waiting for you to respond.

At this point in the game, we've already written out our plans from now until Tribunal, so much of the "fluff RP" stuff I had included in that list is no longer relevant, and the resources that might have been valuable now have to be shoe-horned into existing plans that are pretty full: things like journals of magi who have attended previous tribunals (which, by the by, would have given Viscaria the excuse to go snooping for clues to her mother); books on roman city design; books on Normandy Tribunal Lore; on running a Tribunal; etc, etc

Lab Texts only need to be "borrowed" for the season I'd be using them (as laid out on the spreadsheet), but I assume we have to buy copies outright.

What we need now is a summation of what the RP experience of interacting with the other covenants was during 1222, so that we can continue to build on that during this period.

I don't know what this thing with a chair in Valnastium is.

A&S competition - the Exhibition Hall will prominently display the finest works of each participating covenant's mundane craftsmen and covenfolk. Prizes are to be awarded, but we haven't figured out what or how they're acquired. I indicated in the compiled list that we'd go looking into it.

The example of Valnastium is a bit misleading, because I, the player, only discovered that Valnastium has a huge mundane library earlier this week. I didn't ask Andru directly, because I didn't know Andru would have anything of particular value. Instead I stated that I sent out general feelers, in an effort to learn who would have what.

Can you explain to me why we can't use the same non-linear storytelling approach here that we've been using elsewhere? We have a chapter begun where Renaud is being propositioned by the PCs, and we have a player who wishes to use that character as a companion. Can we not assume some common ground will be found?

This observation would be more cutting to me if I had not spent the 6-7 months waiting for you to respond to my efforts to begin diplomatic efforts with covenants for trade. You may recall that I specifically objected to doing a five year jump because I wanted my character to be pursuing the Tribunal project in detail. You've created a massive political plotline and are having us montage through it.

I submit that the list doesn't need my attention, until it is totally final. Part of determining the finality of the list is actually going through some amount of "work."

Look, this is your tribunal, or rather Mons Electi. I do not mean this to sound flippant, I mean this to be illustrative. You guys are in charge of Mons Electi. I'm in charge of the world. A lot of the Tribunal "success" is going to be measured by the world. That success is going to be contingent on how much "work" is done. For example, there was early talk of putting out a number of different Tourney events, and I nixed that early on. You remember that, right? And then there is the "mystery" of why those texts weren't useful to Le Maison. That's a pretty strong hint, but someone has to take the steps and find out why they wouldn't be useful.

And yes, intention is usually enough, but in this case, and I'm sorry if it wasn't clear before, intention isn't enough, although it gets you a long way there. You want me to approve the list as an SG? Fine, it's a list. That's all you're going to get out of me, without it being IC.

I have no idea why you think you need to buy copies of lab texts. Things that the Tribunal hosts needs to run a Tribunal are provided without charge, and it is made clear to Fiona by reading the book.

The summation of RP experience: I'm not doing it. You want to get an assessment of your progress in this endeavor, you need to invite people into Mons Electi to review your progress. Or take your plans to someone and have them review the plans. None of that was done. Part of that was my overlooking that Fiona read the book. Part of that is wanting to be out of 1222. You can have written letters in 1222, and I invite you to do so. of you'd like. Further, you may get some answers from people in 1222, but as far as scheduling visits, those events will happen 1223 and later.

The chair is a convention of The Tribunal of the Greater Alps. Valnastium held a chair for Apollodorus. OoH lore roll will reveal the significance of that, or perhaps discussing it with Fiona, since I think Peregrine has the book.

You can use the same non-linear approach for getting Renauld involved, it just happens in 1223 or later. Why? Simply because I don't wan to revisit 1222. It's done. Is that going to impact the players? Not appreciably. I'm not a screw the player kind of GM, despite my lack of commentary on the overall tribunal hosting plans.

This five year jump should be viewed as an opportunity. At worst, Viscaria loses 6 months of effort and it isn't my intention to screw the player(s). I thought starting and pausing the Crowbar thread would be enough of a meta-clue-by-four that the character needs to do some other work. If you want Proctor to be the final judge of your product, that's fine, we can roll/role that way. If you want a better idea of where things stand, you need to involve others outside ME, and you need to do it IC.

You speak of frustration. I've had some frustration myself you know. There have been times that I thought of rage-quitting in frustration. I plug away. Why? I have no fscking idea.

On the road, so I will keep this quick:

Thanks for being clear and working towards a compromise on this point. I think you're saying that you are pushing time forward for the exact reasons I didn't want to push things quickly. I'll post some stuff to address our mutual frustration in-character.

To horribly abuse a metaphor, it sounds like we're on completely different pages, but at least we're using the same font.

So, on further reflection, I'm not sure that I can accept this spell, given Wizard's Tower. Why wouldn't this version also require the +3 Elaborate design? How, exactly, does switching from Base 3 Terram to Base 3 Herbam give us 3 levels of duration and rescind the ritual requirement?

I'm still trying to figure out how to make the Temporary Roman Villa, which mechanically must be bigger than the Baroque Peasant's Hut, but smaller than Wizard's Tower, PLUS 3 magnitudes for duration.

Perhaps, one might argue, the +3 Elaborate Design listed in Conjure the Wizards Tower is for the option to design the layout of the tower during the ritual? In which case, the Temporary Roman Villa wouldn't need it, since it creates the exact same blueprint every time it is cast?

Maybe I'm overthinking this. On the other hand, I really, really want Viscaria to become known for inventing this spell and using it for the Tribunal -- one reason why I'm using BOTH Sheelagh and Abagail during the season that I create it, and why Viscaria sent out feelers for similar lab texts in 1222.

It doesn't require the +3 elaborate design because, IMO, Conjuring the Mystic Tower says "You determine the design of the chambers within." Now, I've always read that with an implicit "at the time of casting." So, in the past, I've required an Int+Finesse score to make sure the design is copacetic. May be totally off base, but the utility of this spell is marginalized greatly if it has to be learned multiple times for multiple designs (and the utility for the spell is not all that high, it's almost a one and done spell, and then what are you going to do with it?). Yeah, I'm reading into it, and I'm basing it on how I felt about it the first time I read it, but then along comes Hermetic Projects and Conjuring the Mystic Cog requires different spells for different types of ships, and it includes the Int+Finesse requirement, as above. So now I'm all conflicted. On the one hand, different ships have different performance characteristics and requirements, and there's a lot more going on in the ship as far as components than the Mystic tower which is just a hollowed out gigantic rock...

So, my tentative ruling, unless there's howling from the troupe (and I mean like everyone howls, not one individual howls) is that +3 complexity isn't necessary because it is done within the spell. However, in the interests of not having to deal with a finesse roll, you can design a +1 complexity into the spell fixing the particulars of the design into the spell components tightly obviating any need to do a finesse roll. Otherwise, you'll need to do a mess of finesse rolls (which have a chance of botch, because it's probably going to be hard to do it again, although I'm open to discussion here, and a lot will depend on Viscaria's ultimate finesse score when all is said and done).

I've seen Conjuring the Mystic Tower with the elaborate design as the magus has a set of plans that are consumed at the casting. So in that one it does depend on having the design done then the spell acts on the drawn design. Otherwise I would say ( putting on SG hat) that it takes a new spell for each different building. If you want to put up the same building and then ReTe it to change it that would be fine.

IIRC, the shipyard could also break down the ship building into separate spells.

I think what you're seeing in HProj is a "Size vs size" mixup. With CotWT, you can redesign the interior all you want, but the building is going to be 80 ft high and 30 ft wide, with 20ft of cellars. Likewise, with the ship spells, you can redesign the interior all you want, but the ship's external dimensions are going to be the size and shape of a cog, or whatever.

So, we're suggesting:

Base 3 R+1, D +3, T +3, Total CrTe 30
R: Touch D: Moon T: Individual (+3 Size)

This would be a moon duration building that requires a finesse roll around 18. It would be larger than the 3-room longhut of Baroque Peasant Hut (Size +2), but smaller than the Wizard's tower (Size +4), making it a decent sized villa or manor.

+1complexity, Total CrTe 35
Negates the need for a finesse roll entirely, by building the design into the spell. This version creates exactly and specifically one building design each time it is cast

By that extension, if the Finesse numbers get high enough, can she make ReTe Craft spells that include magnitudes of complexity in order to reduce the required ease factor?

I think Size +2 is sufficient, I'd have to do some math to check, and I'm fine with handwaving it to some extent because Mystic Tower is Size +4 and mostly hollow. and +1 complexity for a 30th level effect.
Unless Viscaria plans on planting Roman villas on here opponents all the time, I don't see a reason to do the actual arithmetic and find out if size +2 or size +3 is more appropriate. Base individual for terram is 1 cubic pace of stone which when sized up is 100 cubic paces of stone or 300'x300'x300', which is plenty large enough, IMO.

Never... :smiley: Crafting always requires a finesse roll. Any influence Viscaria hopes to have via the spell has to be invested in mastery, specifically Precise Casting. What I'm saying here, is for Creo crafting, whether using vis or a period duration is that you can obviate some of the design time elements by including a fixed design (+1 complexity). Anything else is going to require some Int+Finesse (because Creo Crafting relies on Intelligence, not perception), and in this instance, unless I see a lot of abusive approaches, I'm not interested in making Viscaria do however many dozens of Finesse rolls to determine whether things work out. I think it's reasonable that the spell can be designed so that it is fixed and rigid and all the elements are controlled. If you want to make an Int+Finesse roll as part of the design to see how perfect it is, we can do that. Just keep in mind that it will be a stress die, it might botch, and you might have to reinvent the spell with a new roll. But you'd only want to do this if you're shooting for stellar results... Viscaria wouldn't want to do that, would she? :wink:

Not negate, reduce. For example, in HProj, The Hands of Phereclus (pg 63) is ReHe(Te) 40, and lists the Ease Factors to make each ship. What I'm suggesting is a stackable "+1 pre-designed elements" modifier which reduces the Ease factor by, say, 3 per.

In which case, you could have a ReHe(Te) 50 version which would build a River Barge on an ease factor of 9, but nearly half of the design (6/15 = 40%) would be pre-determined and inalterable at time of casting.

This is just kabitzing.

The +2 upsize makes 100 cubic paces of stone, indeed, but that's not the same as 100 paces cubed. 100 cubic paces of stone would be say a block with dimenions 5 paces x 5 paces x 4 paces, or 15' x 15' x 10'. Or, maybe more relevant to building houses, it could be 1800 square feet of walls/ceilings a half a yard thick. That's enough to make a warehouse (just outer walls and ceiling) with a single 10'-tall story that's 27' square. How that compares to the desired design, which undoubtedly has some interior walls :exclamation: , is unknown to me....

Dammit, I know better, too. It's what I get for engaging in a debate over in the main forum and not paying attention to what I write... right here. :smiley:
Anyway, I'm invoking the rule of handwavium unless you want to argue with amul over it and make it +3 size, for a final effect level of 35... :smiley:

The Lab Total works out like this:

Cr 7 Te 15 + Affinity 3 + MT 7 + Aura 5 + Familiar 6 +4 Lab Gen + 2 Lab Terram + Abigail 11 + Sheelagh 5 + 5 Similar spell (BPH)
= 70 + Experimentation 3 + Sheelagh Inventive Genius 6 +__ die
= 79 + die

(with lab Safety 5, including the Golden Cord 2 from my familiar, that doesn't increase the number of botch dice I'd roll)

So, we're looking for a spell design of 35 or 40 that creates a Roman Villa for Moon duration.

Maybe I'll call this "original research", since it's so out of character for her to experiment. What is she researching? Probably something to do with this whole "Target:Individual, Size +3 isn't Target:Structure" nonsense. I'd have to go looking at those rules again, though.

I have no desire to argue. (Well, I'm an Ars Magica player, so that's demonstrably false - but you know what I mean. :mrgreen: ) Especially with a +1 for complexity in there somewhere, that could mean thinner walls, windows/archways, and all kinds of reasons why the above warehouse calculation was too conservative.

Note that a barn is, in HProj, a Size+3 CrHe building.

Sounds about right...that's what I have the Cabin of Earthen Wood set at over in Canaries.