I think so, I mean, have a space for the tribunal, have a space for a hermetic fair, have a space for the tournament, which may be in the same spot as the tribunal, since they run consecutively. And keep the meeting out of the view of mundanes.
I'm going to reserve this as an in-character response, so if you want input, you either need to invite someone to review the work, or wait for comments in the Crowbar thread.
Is Marcus doing the baths? Andru recommended that in his letter.
Ok, I responded as Andru... Prospero will be sending a response via Alexei, but essentially she will be invited to come visit him, whenever she'd like, but he doesn't write letters unless it's a discussion of Magic Theory. Beyond that, I really am missing what you say you asked for...
Again, I pretty strongly hinted that Viscaria's desires exceeded what was available from Confluensis, given what I said about Maris not using the Tribunal's texts.
What game prizes are you talking about? The tournament prizes are vis sources held in common by the tribunal, those vis sources which are not declared seisin.
So, again, I'm waiting for jebrick to say he's ready to do something with Renuad, I said this a month ago to the day, IIRC. He was transitioning to a new job, so I'd put it on hold, pending his indicating he was ready. I don't herd cats... If you need him to act faster or act as Renuad, ask him? In character, or not? I'll kick it off to happen in 1223.1, but the player needs to confirm he can do something... His character and he are doing Viscaria a favor, so this is a player to player/character to character discussion that I don't think it's fair for me to be a part of. Remember, he's a Lone Redcap, so appealing to that might motivate the character/player...
Last you asked me was whether Heims and Cygna had responded...well, no, they hadn't that's where I deus ex machina'd them into Chronicles.
Frankly, I'm at a loss as to who else to ask for critiques from. I would invite Tria to give me her opinion, but her chapter is AFTER the Tribunal. Do we have any other Hermetic visitors? Flambeau working with the Milites? Anybody? Aside from Phoenix, Tria and Andru, we don't seem to have any named allies. I invited the Spider's Palace kids, but they're apparently kissing babies and greasing palms elsewhere. Possibly, they haven't forgiven me for the trick that I'm about to pull on them in Mother's Footsteps.
I haven't figured out a good way to start that conversation yet, since I'm not in any threads with him, and it isn't clear to me if he's become a covenant member. In other words, I don't know where he lives, so I'm not sure how to ask him IC.
Okay, from my perspective, this is basically what you've told me:
I am not allowed to have actually shopped for any of the lab texts that I asked for in 1222, because we had a miscommunication about how I was supposed to ask for that stuff.
I am not allowed to go shopping for new lab texts until I see the lab texts from Confluensis, which
I am not going to want anyway.
Despite now having outlined a specific list of spell texts which I will need, you still have not told me if I will be able to find them, because
I have not picked up the lab texts from Confluensis, which I will not want.
And now you seem to be telling me that my desire to ask around for lab texts is going to be thwarted because Confluensis will not have any lab texts that I want. Are we miscommunicating again? Has my cell phone once again eaten an important post where I say "Those things that I've been saying I want to do? I would like to actually do them."
Viscaria would like to use the excuse of the Tribunal to expand our library, and spend some of our vis on books and lab texts. We don't have council meeting threads wherein we can discuss such purchasing trips to with the group. Should I start one?
You know what? I am just going to start one.
(Tangent: I'm not sure that you grasp the full import of the proposed house rule about lab texts, but I suspect they change the value of those lab texts. Certainly, they would have influenced what choices I would have made.)
Is there going to be sufficient furniture, doors, etc? Do we need to worry about finding vendors or supplying foodstuffs, etc?
"Prizes for the A&S Competition" : Again, in addition to everything else, we've built a classical museum and are hosting a mundane craft fair, encouraging each covenant to show off the work of their most prized mundane artistans. It's a very Jerbiton sort of thing for us to do. We need prizes to give out. Alexei apparently knows a Verditus Items of Quality guy, but I got crickets when I asked for more details about him, so maybe we'll just make trophies? I wanted SG input on what was available/canonical.
(tangent: Items of Quality is a horribly broken virtue. An entire season making one item? Don't get me started...)
AFAIK, he said he was ready for the chapter to begin. But I can't find the quote now, so ~shrug~ Regardless, I'm going to start a thread to circumvent this whole "waiting on Confluensis when no one is sure why we're waiting on them" nonsense.
The Flambeau are being given a field a bit further awasy so as to contain their activities a bit more (at least thats what we originally talked about). The Milites are pretty much part and parcel with them, but my thinking is that they'll help contain and civilize them a bit further maybe.
Don't pull a trick, then? You have freedom to know about other named magi from the Tribunal book, certainly Thera knows them. You even have some freedom to develop some sketches, if you want someone. Flambeau in Normandy are scarce, though a holdover of Tytalus flexing their muscles after the schism war. I'm currently working on the ladder brackets for the tourney events, these character are a bit more fully formed than last tribunal. Give me a couple of weeks and I'll post it, these would be obvious people to invite, although if you create a few, mi wouldn't object. Indeed this could be open to everyone.
You and me both...I'm unclear on his status. As soon as I killed Apollodorus, I really lost my voice to advise. This is good and bad.
Viscaria was too busy to get things done. I'd like to see a more complete shopping list. Is everything needed fully defined with all the necessary effects? Or am I designing and pricing the effects? Maybe with Viscaria assuming a parter position she needs to hire out things that she had intended to do herself? There is a Bonisagus in Stonehenge that is unhappy....and two people Viscaria knows know about him. He'd make a good hired hand, so to speak.
There isn't anything close to consensus there though, I see three or four opinions. It's tough to price out things with that in flux.
300 people for a week, define how much hospitality and how opulent you want things to be. I'm leaning towards not enough furniture, doors. Redcaps can handle some basic food vendor coordination. If you want fancy banquets and grand dining, probably need to borrow a chef from an allied covenant in another Tribunal
How is this being communicated to the Tribunal? Past Tribunal, which is representative of all previous ones consists of the redcap run fair, basic, but not stellar food is available, housing needs are supplied, and space for the attributable and Tournament.
OK
Yeah, i looked, too, I think the best I found is I'll let you know.
They're the only defined magi NPCs who are younger than us. Viscaria isn't being dastardly, just.....instructional.
I think what I'm looking for is a little more joint-creative effort in fleshing out the world like that. I don't feel like I have sufficient understanding to provide input on world development beyond the ways I have already done. How about this? I'll define a piece, then ask you for a piece, and then see if I can hand off the play to other players:
I would like a story thread wherein a few/handful/small group of magi, who are younger than us but more familiar with the Normandy Tribunal, request a visit to Mons Electi, and we have to play host for a few days, during which time Viscaria will show off the progress on the Tribunal Field. Could you, JL, come up with an outline of why they've come, and maybe a rough guide for individual characters (Two Bonisagus, 10-20 years PG, and an Ex Misc, walk into Mons Electi and ask the bartender...)
I have no idea what Ladder Brackets are, but if you need help, ask and I'll help.
Call his status then, "Dependent on Fiona and that chapter." Asking him to design the Roman baths will be something V does at the end of that chapter, then.
For the mundane items, I'm not certain how I could offer a more complete list. The ones that are general are general either because specifics don't matter ("Furniture for 300, or enough quality wood to make it ourselves") or because what's suitable and available are uncertain ("Prizes for the A&S"), or because greater specificity by me deprives others players opportunities ("books on architecture" let you bring in Tektonius of Bonisagus).
As far as the lab texts go, they are either straight out of the book, or they've been designed and posted in this thread so you could review them and approve/disapprove of them. The only exception to that is the up to 61 Levels of ReTe spells (mostly Craft) and the up to 46 levels of MuVi including the Wizards Communion 30 we own. I assumed you'd want some input into those. I also have the Tribunal Season itself open, nominally "for learning PeVi /DEO spells or Tribunal Politicking."
At this point, the Defense Discussion thread may have yielded additional lab texts we'd want to look for, but they aren't as defined.
Not sure who you're talking about, but I like the direction this is headed. Tell me more!
There isn't anything close to consensus there though, I see three or four opinions. It's tough to price out things with that in flux.
[/quote]
Currently at 4 votes for one variation, but the point that I'm trying to make is that I don't want you to have to make all these decisions at once. If, for example, you were to decide on the results of Fiona's scribal efforts at Durenmar now, and then slowly review each of the Tribunal spell designs and say, "You can find somebody who sells this," or "close but not exact," etc, then that'll give us all time to develop some RP around who has what. Then you can price stuff once we've interacted with the magi that we've created who have the stuff we want.
The way things have been piling up, particularly on the Tribunal Field thread, you've now got a dozen spells to approve, and it just becomes a laundry list for you to suffer through.
If we're in charge of food....
We'll want to show off the budding Mons Electi vineyard and Hydromel cottage industries.
Viscaria would also make sure that all the "top shelf wines" were from Phoenix. She knows a cook or two there, too, but what she wants isn't "fancy banquets." She wants dozens of "street vendors" and restaurants for an "authentic Roman street experience," (a phrase that inevitably causes the listener to want to adjust their black turtleneck and baret).
If we need more furniture, doors, etc, then we'll go looking for the additional labor in the shopping thread that I just started. We have plenty of forest in the regio. ("And if we can't get it done, let me tell you about my Best Front Door Contest idea...")
Have our scribes write up a bunch of pamphlets and have the Redcaps pass them out. Note that we're not ousting the Redcaps out of their usual cut. On the contrary, we're giving them much nicer accommodations and consideration than they've experienced before. If they're used to providing the food, then we just make it clear that we expect them to bring style and quality.
Viscaria wants to generate a fair amount of buzz and excitement about how cool it will be, about the unusual activities that will be there -- "authentic Roman city layout," the A&S competition for mundane covenfolk, the Roman Baths, rentable rooms for lectures and meetings. She's hoping people will request lecture hall spaces ahead of time, so as to generate more buzz.
In short, she's hoping to establish a Reputation from her effort on this project.
Yes, in the Kind Word and Crowbar thread, I talk about how there's a second quarry site around to the other side of the mountain that we're using for Flambeau Field.
Well, some lessons are taken the worst possible way...
I've been wanting people to take on responsibility for developing aspects of the world I've ignored for a long time. While I don't think I put up any roadblocks in this regard, I haven't been as clear about this as I might. If I'm designing the world, there are things I'm going to forget or something isn't going to be right to meet the player's needs. I don't have any objection to players design things that meet their needs... It then becomes my responsibility to match the PC and NPC within the context of the saga to satisfy the demands of the player(s). Not everything will designed will be fait accompli, I'll make adjustments to the characters to surprise and delight PCs. The path to the reward may be twisted or convoluted, or while your PC gets what they wants, they may not want what they get, or find that they have too high a price to pay for what they want and walk away. I'm the facilitator, I'm not the decider. You guys are. You decide what you want, and a rough idea of how you want to get it, and I gin up a story within the context of the world as it exists. A lot of the things you've been asking me to decide are things I don't think I'm best able to decide, because it puts more of my marks on the saga, and less of yours. Does this make sense?
So...here's where i'm going to come in. You want that story... Their motivation for coming is that they want to be a vassal. Who are they in broad terms. Do you want them to be a pawn of yours or a pawn of Guernicus? I'm fine with letting you (the troupe) decide certain things and ensuring that you have a world that you feel like isn't all out to get you.
Like for sports tournaments (NCAA basketball is probably the most common example). I'm currently making a list of magi who will attend and compete, and ranking them accordingly. I want to get the list out in a couple of weeks, so that players can see what's happening in the world, and develop strategies to respond. I'm also going to drop a few rumors, eventually. A number of things do hang on Renuad going to Confluensis...
You can probably grab him after Fiona and Marcus return from the land of giants...
I wasn't thinking about mundane items, so much... Keep in mind that I just introduced the concept that the covenant while seemingly vastly wealthy is paying about half that annual wealth to the church. Is there enough left over? Will the church start squeezing for more, and how does one respond to that? A spell for creating a sufficient quantity of finished wood for furniture making is not that high a level and can create a lot. Talia designed one to create enough wood to build a barge.
I will. You're saying that they're effectively final, now I'll look at them in depth. I didn't want to put eyeballs on them and have someone say, no but wait, let's do it this way. So if you're making the executive decision for the troupe and locking everything in and want me as an SG to approve them and design their method of acquisition, I'll do that.
See, that discussion has been all over the place and I can't get a handle on what's actually being decided. But if it's defense, unless it's a component item, Mons Electi will want to make everything themselves, I would think.
Well, that depends on certain things, such as when and how Cygna responds to Viscaria's letter.
I'm not really making all the decisions at once... It may seem as if I'm deferring things for an extended period of time and it is driving you crazy, but I'm trying to satisfy other requirements I see as being necessary, too. Certain things will resolve themselves, but stories haven't ripened fully.
Plenty of forest in the regio? News to me...
Most of the terrain is mountainous and I've never said it was forested. There might be a few trees, but most of them are in the mundane world.
I'd like to see that pamphlet. Also keep in mind that the Tribunal will coinciding with a mundane fair that happens to be a vis source for Mons Electi... It's conceivable that magi, hungry for vis might try and juice that vis source a bit (or not) in an effort to get more vis, and having other covenant's mundane folk selling their less magical wares on the mundane fair grounds... Of course, there is a lot of potential for disaster there, which the magi can plainly see...
I was thinking any specifically Flambeau events would happen AFTER the Tourney. They wouldn't compete separately from the Tourney as they'd like to get some prizes if possible...
What's the incentive for Flambeau to have competitions concurrent with the Tourney, before the Tourney? After the Tourney, doesn't matter, because they can use the field. A separate field is, IMO, a lot of unnecessary work...
I thought I posted that her response was, "I'm here....what's up?"
Ah. I had misunderstood, too. I had thought that the regio, while mountainous, was also well forested (though not to the degree that the mundane side is). Part of that might be my assuming that the regio's geography mirrored the mundane side's, to a degree, and part might be my living in an area that's mountainous and heavily forested.
So, we're basically looking at a timeline of Tribunal ---> Flambeau Tourney ---> Giant Summit, then?
What is the Flambeau Field and Flambeau Tourney, exactly? I'm asking because to me, it's not clearly defined, and it's certainly outside the scope of the Normandy Tournament.
I did some digging and I probably misunderstood the nature of the Flambeau Field as being for Flambeau to do destructive stuff well away from everyone else... But, there aren't too many Flambeau in the Tribunal, and why would they be doing anything more dangerous than what's already done in the Normandy Tournament? So, I'm confused by the purpose behind a Flambeau Field, and any expectations that might exist for a Flambeau gathering here at Mons Electi.
I think that the reasoning behind the Burning Tundra of Flambeau Field was to have Flambeau, and anyone else, a place to hold their Certamen, their duels, or any other kind of potentially hazardous roughhousing away from innocent bystanders. I don't remember discussion of a particular Flambeau Tournament, off hand.
Flambeau Field is evocative (to me) of a bunch of Flambeau coming to compete... Whereas, it's a place for anyone to do things and not have to be concerned about bystanders, not that OK Corral was like that, but it evokes a much different image in my mind...
I still don't think I see the need. Are they so violent that they need to be kept out of the way like that? I didn't write anything to that effect for the last Tribunal...
Have the field or not. I'm saying it's not necessarily needed for a specific purpose... It might seem neat, but it's about like overbuilding for the Olympics and not thinking about how the facility will be used after the event...
Mostly, yes.
I'll admit I've specifically put out some enchantment ideas as a reason why Mons Electi would be eager to hire some specialists (new players) like they hired Viscaria, or take in new people.
However, there are some items that we can buy. I'll try to do something for you for these.
Sounds fine. Actually doing it may make it come about (the violent outbursts). Perhaps I'm looking back too far at previous editions and how they described the Flambeau.
I think that we should keep this an IC discussion thread, and then make a separate thread for "Defense Implementation, and include dates, die rolls and adjudicated results.
Re: Flambeau Field
Okay, this is a perfect example of where I have been getting frustrated. The Flambeau Field is something that has been discussed since January.
When I described the layout of the Tribunal Project in Kind Word and a Crowbar, I described Flambeau Field as the second quarry site we used for stone.
The first quarry site being the Field itself, which is a plateau atop some kind of appropriate stone. We carve open the Coliseum, and add two levels, as well as carving out ramps leading down to the floor, so that the Coliseum is partially underground. Likewise, the Roman Baths and permanent villa (and, given all the time constraints, the Exhibition Hall) are permanent structures that could get some of their stone by carving out a basement level. But it's unlikely that this would be enough.
So, I envisioned a second quarry site, which was carved into the mountain, much like the Cathedral d'Image. It seemed like a nice place to put the Flambeau Field into.
(As a tangent, Viscaria day-dreams about turning the entire Tribunal Field, including the 2nd quarry site into a Great Work on Rego Terram someday.)
And, yes, JL, there was an event of that scope at the 1221 Tribunal -- the Archmage challenge.
I hope that clarifies things. We never discussed any sort of Flambeau Tourney. Though Alexei might certainly try to arrange something, if he wants.
Peregrine, could you point us to where Cygna responds to Viscaria's letter with "I'm here, whats up?" I must have missed it, which is why it is stagnating.
I had not realized the regio was sparsely populated with vegetation (the urge to describe it in Dwarf Fortress terms is overwhelming). Noted.
I think it would be fun and demonstrative of our world-generating options, to run a few more threads like the one I just started. Akin to the Back Story: Laguna Sententia thread. Throw some requirements at us, JL, and tell us to build it. Explicitly define our permissions in that regard, to help us get an idea of what sort of creative power you'd like to see us using more.
I understand that you and I have different expectations and assumptions about the level of acceptable player input into world generation. You'll note that up until this point, I haven't been willing to create much that is Hermetic and recent, because those are the limitations that I'm used to dealing with. I need you to be more explicit about what you don't consider to be your responsibility (and whose responsibilty you think it is). I recognize that I need to be more explicit about asking you to adjudicate things that I am waiting on you for, because you probably don't think of it as something that I'm waiting on you for.
Sure, though I think Fixer likes making characters better than I do. Tell me what you need.
Sure, but when would I learn it? When would I learn the ReHe Craft spell? Can I use a spont ceremony and vis to create the wood?
We certainly have enough Herbam vis to pay someone to do it.
~double checks~
They're all final design, except for the CrTe house/moon one, which has an extra magnitude for spiffiness that we need to decide what to do with. If the lab text house rule mucks with any of my number-crunching, it won't invalidate any of these approvals, it'll just change the quantity/quality of what she creates.
Lab texts for spells are a tremendous time saver and scope-increaser. Especially with all this Wizard's Communion going on now.
300 magi. With shield grogs, that's at least 600 people. Plus support staff. I think we've been assuming 1200 people? Which doesn't actually require that much space.
Um...okay. I'll get back to you with that pamphlet.
I didn't make the connection between the Mentem source and the Tribunal. I didn't realize they overlapped. I had assumed they happened during two different weeks in the same season.
I am going to want a lot more detail about that fair, and where it is located in relation to the covenant.
Sorry about the frustration. It was more that I was confused when qcipher piped up about a tourney, rather than this being a site/location.
Right, but that's going to be interesting to magi, and is that place sufficiently large for all the magi to attend? If it isn't, it's going to seem...odd. Mind you, no one knows if there will be an Archmage challenge presented. Prospero went to Stonehenge to complete the challenge.
I understand that you and I have different expectations and assumptions about the level of acceptable player input into world generation. You'll note that up until this point, I haven't been willing to create much that is Hermetic and recent, because those are the limitations that I'm used to dealing with. I need you to be more explicit about what you don't consider to be your responsibility (and whose responsibilty you think it is). I recognize that I need to be more explicit about asking you to adjudicate things that I am waiting on you for, because you probably don't think of it as something that I'm waiting on you for.
[/quote]
Going to frustrate you... I'm more of an ask for forgiveness rather than ask for permission kind of manager. I think defining the Normandy Tribunal and it's members is the most necessary, since whether there is a Lotharingian Tribunal or not, knowing who is in it is important. I have been paying attention to other Tribunals and the Grand Tribunal.
I wasn't actually asking for help on this, so Fixer, don't go and start making characters! I am just saying it is one thing keeping me busy. And the Grand Tribunal stuff, which happens a year after the Tribunal.
Yeah, which is what a vassal can help with, among other things. Also, new PCs are coming into the saga, which may or may not be helpful.
The fair is a historical fact, but in this saga Apollodorus had secured the fair for the himself, and then the covenant. It starts on midsummer and requires new canvas every year, and I've been handwaving a lot of stuff related to it...
Right, but now you're making its existence a monkeywrench in our Tribunal plans, so it becomes fair game to ask some questions about. All we know about it so far is that it happens on the first Monday in May.
To start with, where does it happen? Presumably within one day's run by cursor.
Scratch that, I was wrong. I shouldn't post on my phone while away from my notes... They are at separate times, which I can tell by the name of the source now. Now I'm trying to remember which source is collected on the summer solstice... But I don't think that it's a problem or interfering.
I wasn't meaning to throw a monkey wrench into things, I was meaning to let you guys throw a monkey wrench.
If you need him to act faster or act as Renuad, ask him? In character, or not? I'll kick it off to happen in 1223.1, but the player needs to confirm he can do something... His character and he are doing Viscaria a favor, so this is a player to player/character to character discussion that I don't think it's fair for me to be a part of. Remember, he's a Lone Redcap, so appealing to that might motivate the character/player...
