OOC: Building the Tribunal Field

Retired Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: In the Ruins of Bibracte
61

Well, some lessons are taken the worst possible way... :smiley:

I've been wanting people to take on responsibility for developing aspects of the world I've ignored for a long time. While I don't think I put up any roadblocks in this regard, I haven't been as clear about this as I might. If I'm designing the world, there are things I'm going to forget or something isn't going to be right to meet the player's needs. I don't have any objection to players design things that meet their needs... It then becomes my responsibility to match the PC and NPC within the context of the saga to satisfy the demands of the player(s). Not everything will designed will be fait accompli, I'll make adjustments to the characters to surprise and delight PCs. The path to the reward may be twisted or convoluted, or while your PC gets what they wants, they may not want what they get, or find that they have too high a price to pay for what they want and walk away. I'm the facilitator, I'm not the decider. You guys are. You decide what you want, and a rough idea of how you want to get it, and I gin up a story within the context of the world as it exists. A lot of the things you've been asking me to decide are things I don't think I'm best able to decide, because it puts more of my marks on the saga, and less of yours. Does this make sense?

So...here's where i'm going to come in. You want that story... Their motivation for coming is that they want to be a vassal. Who are they in broad terms. Do you want them to be a pawn of yours or a pawn of Guernicus? I'm fine with letting you (the troupe) decide certain things and ensuring that you have a world that you feel like isn't all out to get you.

Like for sports tournaments (NCAA basketball is probably the most common example). I'm currently making a list of magi who will attend and compete, and ranking them accordingly. I want to get the list out in a couple of weeks, so that players can see what's happening in the world, and develop strategies to respond. I'm also going to drop a few rumors, eventually. A number of things do hang on Renuad going to Confluensis...

You can probably grab him after Fiona and Marcus return from the land of giants...

I wasn't thinking about mundane items, so much... Keep in mind that I just introduced the concept that the covenant while seemingly vastly wealthy is paying about half that annual wealth to the church. Is there enough left over? Will the church start squeezing for more, and how does one respond to that? A spell for creating a sufficient quantity of finished wood for furniture making is not that high a level and can create a lot. Talia designed one to create enough wood to build a barge.

I will. You're saying that they're effectively final, now I'll look at them in depth. I didn't want to put eyeballs on them and have someone say, no but wait, let's do it this way. So if you're making the executive decision for the troupe and locking everything in and want me as an SG to approve them and design their method of acquisition, I'll do that.

See, that discussion has been all over the place and I can't get a handle on what's actually being decided. But if it's defense, unless it's a component item, Mons Electi will want to make everything themselves, I would think.

Well, that depends on certain things, such as when and how Cygna responds to Viscaria's letter.

I'm not really making all the decisions at once... It may seem as if I'm deferring things for an extended period of time and it is driving you crazy, but I'm trying to satisfy other requirements I see as being necessary, too. Certain things will resolve themselves, but stories haven't ripened fully.

Plenty of forest in the regio? News to me...
Most of the terrain is mountainous and I've never said it was forested. There might be a few trees, but most of them are in the mundane world.

I'd like to see that pamphlet. Also keep in mind that the Tribunal will coinciding with a mundane fair that happens to be a vis source for Mons Electi... It's conceivable that magi, hungry for vis might try and juice that vis source a bit (or not) in an effort to get more vis, and having other covenant's mundane folk selling their less magical wares on the mundane fair grounds... Of course, there is a lot of potential for disaster there, which the magi can plainly see...

I was thinking any specifically Flambeau events would happen AFTER the Tourney. They wouldn't compete separately from the Tourney as they'd like to get some prizes if possible...
What's the incentive for Flambeau to have competitions concurrent with the Tourney, before the Tourney? After the Tourney, doesn't matter, because they can use the field. A separate field is, IMO, a lot of unnecessary work...

62

I thought I posted that her response was, "I'm here....what's up?"

Ah. I had misunderstood, too. I had thought that the regio, while mountainous, was also well forested (though not to the degree that the mundane side is). Part of that might be my assuming that the regio's geography mirrored the mundane side's, to a degree, and part might be my living in an area that's mountainous and heavily forested.

So, we're basically looking at a timeline of Tribunal ---> Flambeau Tourney ---> Giant Summit, then?

63

What is the Flambeau Field and Flambeau Tourney, exactly? I'm asking because to me, it's not clearly defined, and it's certainly outside the scope of the Normandy Tournament.
I did some digging and I probably misunderstood the nature of the Flambeau Field as being for Flambeau to do destructive stuff well away from everyone else... But, there aren't too many Flambeau in the Tribunal, and why would they be doing anything more dangerous than what's already done in the Normandy Tournament? So, I'm confused by the purpose behind a Flambeau Field, and any expectations that might exist for a Flambeau gathering here at Mons Electi.

64

I think that the reasoning behind the Burning Tundra of Flambeau Field was to have Flambeau, and anyone else, a place to hold their Certamen, their duels, or any other kind of potentially hazardous roughhousing away from innocent bystanders. I don't remember discussion of a particular Flambeau Tournament, off hand.

65

Then let's call it something like...
OK Corral. :smiley:

Flambeau Field is evocative (to me) of a bunch of Flambeau coming to compete... Whereas, it's a place for anyone to do things and not have to be concerned about bystanders, not that OK Corral was like that, but it evokes a much different image in my mind...

66

I mainly thought of it as a place to confine the Flambeau outbursts, there needn't be anything official about it or any events.

67

I still don't think I see the need. Are they so violent that they need to be kept out of the way like that? I didn't write anything to that effect for the last Tribunal...
Have the field or not. I'm saying it's not necessarily needed for a specific purpose... It might seem neat, but it's about like overbuilding for the Olympics and not thinking about how the facility will be used after the event...

68

Mostly, yes.
I'll admit I've specifically put out some enchantment ideas as a reason why Mons Electi would be eager to hire some specialists (new players) like they hired Viscaria, or take in new people.

However, there are some items that we can buy. I'll try to do something for you for these.

69

Sounds fine. Actually doing it may make it come about (the violent outbursts). Perhaps I'm looking back too far at previous editions and how they described the Flambeau.

70

posting.php?mode=edit&f=55&t=7565&p=141670
I affirmed the House Rule, since I had several yeas and no nays.

71

Re: The Defense Discussion.

I think that we should keep this an IC discussion thread, and then make a separate thread for "Defense Implementation, and include dates, die rolls and adjudicated results.

Re: Flambeau Field

Okay, this is a perfect example of where I have been getting frustrated. The Flambeau Field is something that has been discussed since January.

When I described the layout of the Tribunal Project in Kind Word and a Crowbar, I described Flambeau Field as the second quarry site we used for stone.

The first quarry site being the Field itself, which is a plateau atop some kind of appropriate stone. We carve open the Coliseum, and add two levels, as well as carving out ramps leading down to the floor, so that the Coliseum is partially underground. Likewise, the Roman Baths and permanent villa (and, given all the time constraints, the Exhibition Hall) are permanent structures that could get some of their stone by carving out a basement level. But it's unlikely that this would be enough.

So, I envisioned a second quarry site, which was carved into the mountain, much like the Cathedral d'Image. It seemed like a nice place to put the Flambeau Field into.

(As a tangent, Viscaria day-dreams about turning the entire Tribunal Field, including the 2nd quarry site into a Great Work on Rego Terram someday.)

And, yes, JL, there was an event of that scope at the 1221 Tribunal -- the Archmage challenge.

I hope that clarifies things. We never discussed any sort of Flambeau Tourney. Though Alexei might certainly try to arrange something, if he wants.

Peregrine, could you point us to where Cygna responds to Viscaria's letter with "I'm here, whats up?" I must have missed it, which is why it is stagnating.

I had not realized the regio was sparsely populated with vegetation (the urge to describe it in Dwarf Fortress terms is overwhelming). Noted.

I think it would be fun and demonstrative of our world-generating options, to run a few more threads like the one I just started. Akin to the Back Story: Laguna Sententia thread. Throw some requirements at us, JL, and tell us to build it. Explicitly define our permissions in that regard, to help us get an idea of what sort of creative power you'd like to see us using more.

I understand that you and I have different expectations and assumptions about the level of acceptable player input into world generation. You'll note that up until this point, I haven't been willing to create much that is Hermetic and recent, because those are the limitations that I'm used to dealing with. I need you to be more explicit about what you don't consider to be your responsibility (and whose responsibilty you think it is). I recognize that I need to be more explicit about asking you to adjudicate things that I am waiting on you for, because you probably don't think of it as something that I'm waiting on you for.

Sure, though I think Fixer likes making characters better than I do. Tell me what you need.

Sure, but when would I learn it? When would I learn the ReHe Craft spell? Can I use a spont ceremony and vis to create the wood?

We certainly have enough Herbam vis to pay someone to do it.

~double checks~

They're all final design, except for the CrTe house/moon one, which has an extra magnitude for spiffiness that we need to decide what to do with. If the lab text house rule mucks with any of my number-crunching, it won't invalidate any of these approvals, it'll just change the quantity/quality of what she creates.

Lab texts for spells are a tremendous time saver and scope-increaser. Especially with all this Wizard's Communion going on now.

300 magi. With shield grogs, that's at least 600 people. Plus support staff. I think we've been assuming 1200 people? Which doesn't actually require that much space.

thatsawrapper.com/PT-Seating ... ulator.htm

Um...okay. I'll get back to you with that pamphlet.

I didn't make the connection between the Mentem source and the Tribunal. I didn't realize they overlapped. I had assumed they happened during two different weeks in the same season.

I am going to want a lot more detail about that fair, and where it is located in relation to the covenant.

72

Sorry about the frustration. It was more that I was confused when qcipher piped up about a tourney, rather than this being a site/location.

Right, but that's going to be interesting to magi, and is that place sufficiently large for all the magi to attend? If it isn't, it's going to seem...odd. Mind you, no one knows if there will be an Archmage challenge presented. Prospero went to Stonehenge to complete the challenge.

I understand that you and I have different expectations and assumptions about the level of acceptable player input into world generation. You'll note that up until this point, I haven't been willing to create much that is Hermetic and recent, because those are the limitations that I'm used to dealing with. I need you to be more explicit about what you don't consider to be your responsibility (and whose responsibilty you think it is). I recognize that I need to be more explicit about asking you to adjudicate things that I am waiting on you for, because you probably don't think of it as something that I'm waiting on you for.
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Going to frustrate you... I'm more of an ask for forgiveness rather than ask for permission kind of manager. I think defining the Normandy Tribunal and it's members is the most necessary, since whether there is a Lotharingian Tribunal or not, knowing who is in it is important. I have been paying attention to other Tribunals and the Grand Tribunal.

I wasn't actually asking for help on this, so Fixer, don't go and start making characters! I am just saying it is one thing keeping me busy. And the Grand Tribunal stuff, which happens a year after the Tribunal.

Yeah, which is what a vassal can help with, among other things. Also, new PCs are coming into the saga, which may or may not be helpful.

The fair is a historical fact, but in this saga Apollodorus had secured the fair for the himself, and then the covenant. It starts on midsummer and requires new canvas every year, and I've been handwaving a lot of stuff related to it...

73

Right, but now you're making its existence a monkeywrench in our Tribunal plans, so it becomes fair game to ask some questions about. All we know about it so far is that it happens on the first Monday in May.

To start with, where does it happen? Presumably within one day's run by cursor.

74

Scratch that, I was wrong. I shouldn't post on my phone while away from my notes... They are at separate times, which I can tell by the name of the source now. Now I'm trying to remember which source is collected on the summer solstice... But I don't think that it's a problem or interfering.

I wasn't meaning to throw a monkey wrench into things, I was meaning to let you guys throw a monkey wrench.

75

The Spring’s Break of Frost happens on the Winter Solstice. Nothing else has solstice in the description.

The wiki has our Vis Sources sorted by season. Summer is Everchanging Silk (silkworm cocoons) and Baubles of the Wind, muto and auram respectively.

76

Alright.
Tipsy pbp SG'ing is a skill I can say I don't have.

77

Yes, I do!

JL, if you need characters, tell me! You can be specific (age 40, 10 years out of apprenticeship, flambeau with Cr and Aq as primary arts) or not (create a magus), but I'll do it gladly, and send you the MC file!
The only caveat is that this may take some time. I'm currently squatting a lot, so this helps in a way, but even then, you'll need to ask in advance.

Arf :laughing:

78

Int 3 + Stone 3 +1 specialty + 1 dwarf = 8+die
Int 3 + Architect 2 + (1 dwarf?) = 5/6+die
Per 0 + Finesse 4? + 1 specialty = 5

POSSIBLE NEW RULE: "library research bonus" for spending several seasons seeking additional info on Roman Architecture (see "Other People's Vis" thread, on going), from Covenants 98: in this case, +2 "for a Summer Covenant with no particular interest in the matter" or higher, based on how successful she is at acquiring viable research material.

POSSIBLE NEW RULE: Since this sort of Rego Craft effort represents an ongoing effort to work at and refine her project, (as quoted from above, This assumes he does one roll, which is the average of all the rolls he would have made.), then really what we're talking about is applying principles while studying them. So what about allowing a seasons's worth of work to be done in a season as a 7-day distraction from studying, provided that the subject studied is relevant to the craft project (Finesse, Craft, or Architecture)? Possibly even limit it to non-arcane skills.

And before anybody dismisses this as an effort to further pointscum for Finesse levels, I just checked the math, and using the available study materials and seasons, this would only raise me from 4 to 5 -- after I've already built everything for the Tribunal.

Locations
Basic City Grid - the streets, rough building placement, walls, gates
Using well documented city layouts, an extremely simple wall design, with the bulk of the work done by the magically enhanced quarry team, this would be Simple (EF 3) to do, and would constitute a month's worth of work, which she'll try to do in an instant (EF 3 + RegoCraft 3 + Time 3 = EF 9). The big trick here is that she may have to do this earlier than the rest of her efforts, with a lower Finesse score, so her quarrymen have guidelines to work with.

Roman Villa
Roman Style Baths

  • City and Guild say that a Carpenter could create 2 townhouses in a season. This is also her first real test of her Rego Crafting skills, so I'd say that she comes out and does a day's worth of effort in an instant every day for a season to make both of these. So it's Base EF __ + Rego Craft 3 = (Int 3 + Finesse __ + safe die roll estimate 3-ish).

Coliseum - that seats 200-300, with loading ramps

  • This one is tricky, because I've been directing excavation efforts to create the rough structure of the building starting in 1224.1 (it's partially or completely underground), so the rough shape of it gets done by the quarry team under supervision over several years, with the nobbly bits done by her at the end, the Hermetic equivalent of sanding off all the sharp edges.

Call it an Average Task (EF 9), with a year's worth of work by her, which she'll try to do using both the quarrymen team and her magic in a season. If she manages to find the research material (above), then she may try to get one degree fancier. EF 9/12 + RegoCraft 3 + Time 3 + (Possible Research Bonus 3) = 15

Expecting to have to throw some Confidence points at this. Again, it might be interesting to then limit her study efforts to include relevant topics (can only do this if studying Architecture or Finesse, for example).

Building for Arts and Exhibitions
Actually, I think for RP purposes, we'll say that she cheats on this and will cast two Baroque Peasant Huts with modified designs, and then Rego Craft a month's worth of simple additions in an instant (EF 3 + RegoCraft 3 + Time 3 = 9), because it's a really basic Parthenon style structure. She'll do this in an effort to gain more time to finish "perfecting" the Coliseum.

79

Rego crafting is perception + finesse. Creo Crafting is int+finesse.

You're constructing something and whatever follows must rely on previous work, you must understand how all the pieces fit together in a coherent logical fashion. With Creo crafting, you're reaching into the Realm of Magic and having it create the finished project, without you having to know the intimate details of how it was made.

80

Corrected above. That drops me down about one Ease Factor level.

Once we decide on whether or not the times and other numbers look acceptable, and how we feel about the other rule suggestions I made, then I can go back and adjust how long it'll take to do all of this.