OOC Discussion

Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: Base Camp
761

I think there's still interest, as long as they're devices that can be used on multiple people at once, rather than something for just one person to wear.

The other thing Gregorius would now be interested in is a high penetration version of Shape of the Fearsome King that could be given to a grog (preferably with Puissant Brawl) for the annual horsefight (as well as just more general combat utility). No point in risking a magus' / familiar's life and lab time if we don't have to, plus it gives the covenant insurance against personnel changes.

Obviously we pay your vis costs. In addition to that, maybe:

  • 4 pawns for the minor items
  • 6 pawns for the lion skin

This is assuming that they're all lesser items (and also that the covenant isn't broke, given that Gregorius is also paying Stephen for lab note translation and the Tremere for a wall - I think we're okay for now, but Gregorius does tend to be a bit profligate with vis...)

762

Fray cannot easily make Shape of the Fearsome King as a simple device as his lab total is not really high enough yet (MuCo/An 30 for R:Touch, means target LT 60+), and Fray's LT would be around 68 (see below). That does not leave much room for Penetration (only +8 Pen) which I don't think is useful.

It could be created as a complex item, but that would require 3x seasons and more vis. I'll do that instead of crafting the other items, or another magus might be able to open the device for enchantment too to save a season. At present designing the effect for a max level of 45, in a complex item will get the best return on two seasons of work, and that might mean level 30 base effect with +30 penetration which would be really effective.

(Note LT is 68 = Int +3, Magic Theory +8, MT-Specialty (Muto +1), Muto +21, An/Co +11, Aura +5, Lab Mu/General quality +2, InventiveG +3, Transformation-Cloak +4, Muto-Mercury +5, similar spell +5
A lion pelt cloak with mercury embedded in a silver latch, would be material Leather 2, and Size x4? )

763

I'm not wild about the Theban apprentice system. I agree it makes sense, but it does stomp all over a favorite [i]ArM[i/] trope, and I seem to recall that I had some questions about its praticability. That being said, I could live with it, though Viola really should be taking another apprentice before 7 years from now (or could be be citizens before the next tribunal). Any other opinions? Do you remember what thread it was in?

Scott

764

I suppose the first question is "how much penetration do we need?" Unfortunately we don't know the horse's exact Might, but Fray can probably have a guess based on the spells we've cast at it:

  • Stephen's Hands of the Grasping Earth failed to penetrate. That had a penetration of 9+die, so the horse almost certainly has more than 10 Might. Which isn't exactly surprising.
  • Fray's Shape of the Fearsome King succeeded with penetration of 24 + die

So its might is probably somewhere between 10 and 35 - and I'd guess based on its nature it's probably in the 20 - 30 region.

We might be able to bring down the penetration needed in the device by triggering it in a more powerful aura than the horse will be fighting in, but I'd rather leave that as a back-up plan in case we realise we've misjudged something.

So, we have two options - try to boost Fray's lab total to the desired level, or switch to an invested device.

Fray's base lab total I think is actually 69, as he also has a lab bonus of Items +1. I'd recommend using shape and material of Animal Hide (+7 turn into an appropriate animal) + cloak (+4, capped at +2) rather than bothering with the Mercury, but it doesn't make much difference (and I suppose the Mercury might be useful for other enchantments if we do go down the enchanted item route). That means +9 penetration (or possibly +8 depending on how you want to do rounding).

I agree your calculation of the vis to open (I think the clasp and the embedded mercury would only be tiny, for 6 and 5 pawns, which means he couldn't quite open it as a compound device at the moment - which does limit the number of other effects we could put in it. That's probably not an issue unless someone has a brilliant idea for what else we should put in, though).

I'd also suggest creating the item with Concentration duration and Item maintains concentration rather than Sun duration, as this won't warp the grog, but that still leaves the level at 30.

Switching to an invested device has the advantage it allows us to instill other effects later as well, to make our "lion" more powerful; however, a lot of these could probably also be done in separate devices unless there's a reason a liniked trigger is valuable (or we can't do those in one season either).

If you did do it as an invested device, you could get a total level of 46 in two seasons, which would give you +32 penetration, which is probably but not certainly enough.

Options to increase Fray's lab total include:

Lab assistants.
Fray has no leadership score, so he's limited to 1 assistant unless he gets a familiar or all of his assistants are Bonisagi, their familiars or their apprentices. Potential assistants ranked in order of utility rather than availability are:

  • Viola: Int +4 + MT 8 + items speciality 1 + IG 3 = 16
  • Stephen: Int 3 + MT 9 + IG 3 = 15
  • Constantine: Int +1 + MT 6 + lab assistant speciality 1 = 8
  • Cicero: Int 1 + MT 6 + lab assistant speciality 1 = 8
  • Gregorius: Int 1 + MT 4 - Creative Block 3 =2 ; also causes your final lab total to be reduced by 50% (Weak Enchanter) and your project to cost a third more vis (Waster of Vis).

So in theory, having Stephen and Cicero would probably do the trick; however, asking a fellow Bonisagus to be your lab assistant is probably a bit gauche (plus Trogdor hasn't posted in a while now). An alternative would be Fray spending a season to get leadership 1 with an appropriate speciality, at which point he could use 2 assistants regardless of who they were. That does still requires the assistants' time, though (and you really don't want Gregorius, which means we're talking getting either Stephen or Viola involved to get the necessary lab total).

Experimentation
This would give +3 (IG) + Risk Modifier (max 2) + simple die, which probably isn't enough to make a difference on its own. I'm also always reluctant to experiment on projects involving vis usage due to the potential resource wastage.

Boosting his Scores
This has the advantage that it's useful to Fray anyway, and the project isn't immediately urgent.

We don't have a useful Muto book. We do have a Corpus and an Animal book; however, the Animal Summa is a bit rubbish (Q8), and you'd need to raise both to get a single point of lab total. The other option is boosting your Magic Theory - we have 4 tractatus on this, which with your affinity would get you to MT 7 in two seasons (for +2 lab total due to the increase in the shape and materials cap), or 6 xp under MT 8 in a year).

You might also be able to enchant (or otherwise acquire) an item that gave you a boost to your lab totals.

Again, none of these are going to make a big enough difference on their own.

765

If she really wanted to, she could keep an apprentice rather than hand him over to the tribunal. That would get her two shards, but that's more of an IC problem - and there may be other ways to get round it. Does she have any particular ideas for where to get an appropriate apprentice without going through the tribunal system?

I'll note that Gregorius does have a plan to try and extract potential apprentices from the local slave trade and pass them on to the tribunal in exchange for tokens - see his recent letter to Boustaphan.

766

We can also wait to craft the Lion Pelt - which I think will be best at present. Fray can still cast the spell on a grog when needed anyway (using FFM to move R:Per to R:Touch) and let them fight for the covenant. Same with the growth spell to make the Lion form huge (a Size 6 lion). Suggest we pick a grog to practice in the transformed shape too, maybe Bogdan & Godzimir go somewhere quiet so it does not freak anyone out too much?

That way Fray can invent other effects or items now, and work on his arts & lab. A few years might make a dramatic difference. I also need to plan Fray's longevity ritual (urgently), apprentice, and then a talisman.

767

She doesn't have any plan at present. She's more worried about the lab.

Mind you, given our location, we're much more likely to find potential apprentices than the average Theban magi.

Scott

768

Unfortunately I think there are a couple of problems with casting the Lion spell on the grogs:

  • It'll be level 30, so it'll warp them. This probably isn't a complete dealbreaker for a one-off fight, but it's going to cut off practice
  • It's not going to count for Fray's Focus. Combined with the increase in level, it's therefore only likely to have penetration of 8 + Aura + die, which probably isn't going to be enough.
769

Maybe? We're not near any major population centres, so other than extreme luck with the local village we're pretty much left with the slave trade - and that's going to require continuous monitoring rather turning up one day and searching.

I've found the original conversation about the Theban approach to apprentices - it goes over several pages, but starts near the bottom here: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=6498&start=840

770

Sheesh. I remembered I didn't like the apprentice and token systems, but I couldn't remember why. Give me a day or two and let me see if I can think of a version of the Theban apprentice distribution system that would actually work in the "real" world.

Scot

771

I have to admit, I generally prefer to keep things close to the book - easier to remember, and reduces the potential for new people being unaware of / confused by the changes.

772

Good points again, darn. It will take Fray a lot of dedicated years to get that Pen total up - which may not be best in his broader story.

What about Fray learning the Communion spell and casting the spells with other Magi helping?
He could also re-create the spell in a Season for a specific grog(s) to help with warping. That helps with Aegis pen totals so it might work.

Iā€™m also interested in inventing MuVi effect to refocus a spell for a target which avoids warp. I took inspiration from a thread on the forums and wrote it up a while back. If Fray invented it for the Lion spell it would only need to be D:Sun so slightly easier mechanics.

773

Fray might serve better by looking for new vis sources and scouting the area around us, rather than enchanting devices.

Scott

774

[I've moved the tribunal discussion here because it doesn't really fit in the RP thread.]

While my instincts are the same (which is a big reason why we have a minimum of house rules), playing in an RPG with unrealistic social and economic systems makes me want to scrape my eyes out. As a compromise, here's what I propose:

Shard and tokens I'm OK with, as long as they don't "replace vis"--the notion that vis is essentially without value in the tribunal is just laughable. However, as long as tokens can redeem shards, they have real value, especially if the tribunal doesn't give them out willy-nilly, leading to inflation. If they can be used to obtain apprentices, they're all the more valuable.

As for apprentices, I have real trouble with any system that reduces the incentive of magi to locate apprentices--and if the finding magus gets only one token and the apprentice gets the rest, the locating magus doesn't have the same incentive as in other tribunals. However...one big advantage of the Theban system over the normal one is that apprentices are better matched to masters. For the masters, that matching has real value, which means that an apprentice in Thebes can bring a higher price than an apprentice elsewhere. A reasonably realistic system, I tihnk, would take bids, as in canon, but give the finding magus a number of tokens equal to what's bid by the second-highest bidder, and given the apprentice the difference between the highest and second-highest. The apprentice would still be able to pick someone other than the highest bidder, but wouldn't get any tokens (we might even give her shards if she picked the third-highest or lower bidder?). I considered also deducting some tokens from what the finding magus gets to compensate for training the apprentice before the next tribunal meets, since that training will raise the value of the apprentice--but given that the finder has to wait for the tribunal to meet to get paid off, the higher payment balances the wait nicely. How would that work?

I'm still up in the air about the timing of the tribunal ,though.

Scott

775

That sounds more like Gregorius' area of expertise than Fray's? Gregorius has actually already got his local Area Lore up to 2. If going looking for vis sources is something you as a storyguide are happy for us to do, I can put some time into it.

I'm not convinced this spell should work - it doesn't feel like it should be possible to make a spell less powerful without actually reducing its power.

If it did work, I think it would be a Momentary duration spell (unless it was for a ritual or something), as you'd only have to alter it at the moment of casting.

An alternative which I'd be happier with is a Muto Vim spell to tailor a spell to a specific person using the "Superficially change a spell of less than (twice the level plus 1 magnitude) of the vim spell" guideline. You'd need one spell invented formulaicly per person to tailor it to, though, so it's not very efficient.

We do have a level 25 version of Wizard's Communion in the library, so three magi all learning it should do the trick penetration wise. Gregorius is a bit off being able to learn it, though (and hadn't been planning to focus on Muto or Vim in the near future, given he still needs Rego Mentem to bind Alcimus).

776

I'm still not entirely sure that the system does reduce the incentive to find apprentices overall - yes, magi who specifically want an apprentice can't necessarily keep the apprentice they find without incurring shards, but magi (or Redcaps) who don't necessarily want an apprentice yet, but do want tokens (e.g. because they want a tribunal sponsored longevity ritual, or a season of service from a senior magus) now have a reason to go out looking for them when they wouldn't necessarly have before.

I think the current system works slightly different to how you've described, in that the finding magus gets one token from the tribunal, whereas the apprentice gets all of the tokens offered by their new parens. Also note that it's not usually the finding magus who does the work of the initial education - Redcaps usually take them to Polyaigos, which has a school which teaches potential apprentices classical Greek, Latin, philisophy and the liberal arts.

What happens if only one magus bids on the apprentice? Under your proposed system, the finding magus wouldn't get anything.

I'd be reluctant to penalise an apprentice with shards.

777

Yes, the finding magus gets rewarded. My issue (as someone who's spent decades now thinking about why incentives do or don't work) is that he doesn't get as big a reward as a) a magus who finds an apprentice for himself or b) an apprentice hunter in another tribunal. There is absolutely an incentive to find apprentices in canonical Thebes--just not as much of an incentive as in other tribunals. If you're really attached to the straight canonical system, we can play out the probable consequences of it, but it's not going to work the way the author of Sundered Eagle thought it would work.

Ah, OK. In any case, I think the finding magus is getting underpaid, and not being rewarded at all for particularly good apprentices, or for the delay between finding an apprentice early in the cycle and actual payment at the next tribunal.

Right. I'm willing to discuss how the system handles the costs of training apprentices for the periods between tribunals: that obviously raises their value, and the tribunal itself might want to recoup some of that cost, perhaps by taking a cut of the auction price.

I think that's an "edge case", but I'd be inclined to say the finding magus gets everything in that case (less any cut taken by the tribunal to pay for training).

I tend to agree. The whole thing goes to hell in a handbasket if the apprentice can choose a low bidder without any consequence, though--maybe the apprentice would assume a token debt (or something equivalent) to the finding magus, rather than receiving shards.

Scott

778

I suppose I've no fundemental objections to playing out the conequences, but given the pace of the saga I don't know how much of it we'll see?

Polyaigos gets a small vis stipend from the Tribunal, according to the book, but otherwise doesn't get anything other than another brick in its reputation as a covenant that's a tireless servant of the tribunal (with the associated prestige and goodwill - it's a powerful autumn covenant that's managed to keep the goodwill of the rest of the tribunal). There's a minor storyhook in that the significant mundane resources Polyaigos requires to run the school are currently under potential threat.

There's a minor consequence (under the standard system) in that the apprentice gets to keep the tokens the winning magus bid - so if she picks someone other than the magus who offered the most tokens, she loses out on the difference.

779

Some of it would already have played out at the 1221 tribunal, but, to give a few spoilers, what would probably happen is that the newly strengthened Latin magi would push an alliance between the League against Idolatry and the people annoyed by the apprentice system. There's a lot to like about the latter, but also multiple problems that would each annoy a different set of magi: the general shortage of apprentices would irk anyone who's looking for an apprentice, the token bidding would bother magi who don't have a lot of tokens to bid (that's going to be junior magi, and magi new to the tribunal), and the strong incentives against apprentice abuse (not only the shard penalties, but the apprentice's ability to pick a master) are going to annoy magi with less-than-ethical designs on apprentices. Given his house affiliation, Gregorius would probably be at least moderately involved in all this, but I'm not sure I want to play that much high politics in the saga.

Does ironboundtome have an opinion?

I've started to go back and do the reading of Sundered Eagle I never did, but I hadn't gotten that far. I'm not wild about the book (it smacks a little too much of "Wouldn't the world be wonderful if it were all run by virtuous pagans (which is redundant)?" and frankly, as a goth, I've gotten enough of that in real life), but it's very creative. In any case, the canon sounds reasonable on this particular point, and provides a subsidy to apprentice training, which (under my proposal) would neatly allow the higher value of more trained apprentices to compensate finders who have to wait longer for their payment.

Yes, and I like that feature--that's why I suggested the difference between the winning and second bids. It's not as big a boon (or loss) for the apprentice, but it's still meaningful.

Scott

780

My opinions
... I've just finsihed reading SE early chapters and I don't see the token/shard system being practical (sorry). It is very likley I've missed a logical link which makes it useful though. Good mechanic for a small synthetic system where social issues and politics are kept to a minimum, but terrible in a setting where personal dislikes, grudges, and external factors would greatly influence their value. It is particularly broken because magi who are not "in" the system are also not subject to it. So an outsider can move through the area, follow the hermetic code, but not the local rules, and then exit without any real issues. The tribunal's special rules only work for the dedicated inhabitants, not every other entity.

e.g. The Tremere could totally rig that system from outside through a small investment time from their Magi (hunt their potential apprentices there and not be subject to the rules, use other hermetic resources to "shard" opponents, have loyal junior members join and swing the views and politics of the magi populace).

That said, if the token/shard system was a lever for political power then it has the same strengths as it provides infleunce, but not the disadvantages of being very unenforcable.

Specifically a good potential apprentice is worth more than a few tokens, and a bad one isn't worth much at all (good/bad subject to a House/magus needs obviously). I could see a magus holding their token for the next tribunal if only "bad" ones were present, which is a poor outcome overall.

What is stopping a Thebian magus from finding their apprentice abroad? Or stop a non-Thebian magus from finding one inside the tribunual and leaving? If Fray ever goes apprentice hunting in this saga he might just go outside the tribunal and poach one rather than use tokens. It seems that having 2 -3 tokens is very handy, and hoarding them is desirable.

An aside - the token/shard system reminds me of the DKP system that many online games use - ok for a set of people who are not being greedy, but broken for big groups and edge cases.