Note that the Tremere (who make up a significant proportion of the League against Idolatry, albeit not all of it), have a policy of advocating for the rights of apprentices (page 117 of HoH:TL). That doesn't mean they're going to feel the current system is perfect, but I'm not sure they'd want to go back to the default "find your own apprentice, you can treat them as your property" system either.
That seems a little unfair to me, in that I see the paganism and the tribunal structure as two separate things (albeit both from a background of preserving greece's old traditions). Relatively few of the tribunal's magi are actually devout pagans - they're just rather more comfortable with pagan practices than the church would approve of. The book also doesn't shy away from the fact that there are a significant number of people who have issues with some of the features of the tribunal (or would if they knew more about it).
Rereading bits of the book myself, one thing I'd forgotten is that Xylintes runs/used to run a school and orphanage in Constantinople, which was a (probably-)significant (given the number of gifted children who get abandoned) source of apprentices. Specifically, the school was run by the Jerbiton of the covenant, most of whom were either killed in the sack of Constantinople or fled afterwards, leaving a blatantly gifted Criamon. Said Criamon has turned the covenant into a small Path of the Body clutch, and the school is just about functioning with companions running it, but whilst it's canonical they do still supply some apprentices to the tribunal that supply has probably reduced at lot.
I agree that's a potentially significant problem. The book just says that magi not eligible for the tokens and shards system are censured by the tribunal via fines and ostracism, without going into details. Presumably if the fines are high enough this should also work as a deterrent.
Probably nothing (give or take Peripheral Code issues with other tribunals), but is it actually a problem for the Theban tribunal if they do?
Note that as a Bonisagus, Fray is a special case - the tribunal recognises that the oath trumps its peripheral code, so he can just turn up to the apprentice interviews and take his pick of the apprentices before the tribunal begins, even if he has a heap of 50 shards (it's traditional for him to give the apprentice a token or two, but not actually a requirement).
While that's a good point, I also wouldn't put it past the Tremere to form a tactical alliance in the hopes of getting what they wanted while watering down what the apprentice-seekers want with a compromise--especially if they thought the apprentice recruitment system wasn't supplying enough apprentices.
It's just a hunch on my part about the author's motives--not really germane to the debate, though it's one reason the whole thing annoys me.
That's another wrinkle in the canonical system, obviously.
As a matter of practicality, I agree with that, but the notion of different sets of rules for different magi can't possibly go over well with the rest of the Order. Mind you, I'm OK with Thebes been regarded bemusedly as a nutty tribunal on the fringes of the Order.
Well, it's going to irritate the purists in Thebes, because it's circumventing the rules. And it'll irritate everyone outside Thebes in that Thebes is compensating for its own dysfunctional system for finding apprentices by driving up demand for them elsewhere. And then someone is going to demand building a big, beautiful wall and/or establishing a hostile environment for Thebans....
Fair enough on that one.
As I've said, I'm willing to compromise here, so long as I can find something that both of you can stomach.
As a player I'm really happy if the apprentice system is wonky and quiry, likewise the tribunal rules. That creates strageness which keeps i interesting. So while I think their system is odd, it will create plenty of story potential.
That's fair, I think. And it's not like there aren't people (i.e. the Tremere) already trying to "normalise" them, to the resentment of the tribunal itself. Of course, there's a whole lot of additional history to the Tremere's efforts, which make them even less appreciated than they would otherwise be.
Whilst I appreciate it's quite a bit of "work", I would strongly suggest you read through the whole of the Sundered Eagle (or at least all of the Hermetic / realm bits - you can probably skip the descriptions on the mundane landscape of Greece if you want to) before starting to play with the politics, as there will be little bits like that stuff on Xylintes which is relevant.
OK, I need to be able to stomach it, too. I'd like an apprentice system that's halfway realistic, and in which my character has some chance of obtaining an apprentice in the near future.
An answer on the casting tablet - if the answer to the tribunal question is Autumn 1228, Gregorius is probably going to be hardpressed to find and pay for one by then
Updating the map of the cavern systems
Updating the map of the surface area to include the new buildings
I thought I said the one Leadership book was fine. I'll need to stat it out.
I think it's gonna have to be Autumn 1228--and using Zethos as the patron solves the one big problem with that.
I completely forgot about that one. I can work the details in the next few days, but yes, you're right that it'll be difficult to do before Autumn 1228. OTOH, if both Gregorius and Viola are at tribunal, Viola can get them both back quickly with Arcadian Travel.
On my list, but it's at the bottom of the list because it's the most time-intensive.
Which new buildings? I'm not questioning, just admitting my poor memory.
Okay - so shall I advance to the end of Spring/Summer 1230, leaving Autumn 1228 blank for now? Are you planning to run the tribunal and 1230 story simultaneously or in parallel? (I'd probably prefer in parallel if you're expecting the tribunal story to be relatively inconsequential, so we can get time moving, but it depends on how quick you expect it to be and whether there is likely to be anything in it which would be likely to affect future development in it).
I suspect by the time he's got to and participated in the tribunal, it'll be well past 10 days?
Unfortunately some of the old posts detailing their construction appear to have gone missing - there's a link to them, but it doesn't go anywhere useful. However, there was a blacksmith's workshop, carpenter's workshop and infirmary built as of Spring 1228. Gregorius described them to Stephan as follows:
I think the plan was to next create a barracks and a mason's workshop - I think those can both be done by the end of 1228, so I might alter the "selling the stone" plan to not start until after they're built, as a barracks in particular would be useful (the existing buildings are rather cramped), and the mason's workshop will help us get to proper export levels. Of those, the mason's workshop will be down at the quarry, and the barracks in the main clearing with some space outside it for a training yard.
Which says 3 lots of building materials after the carpenter's and blacksmith's workshops are done, so that being the infirmary plus a future barracks and mason's workshop seems consistent.
Rereading the book myself (page 28), one point I'd forgotten is that at each tribunal, four of the archai on the Treasury Council (one for each phyle, i.e. area) are assigned to collect vis and apprentices (they can delegate this, but it still means there are four people out there doing it). This apparently results in about 15 apprentices per tribunal period.
Neglect of duties (as determined by the Conciliatory board) by an arche is punishable by a shard, so it's possible there could be some politics around how many apprentices you have to bring in to count as having done your duties diligently enough.
Getting made citizens, obviously, but whilst that's consequential to the characters it probably doesn't need much screen time. We do each need sponsorship by an arche in addition to residence at a registered covenant - up to you how much of a formality you want that to be (I assume if there are any Tremere arche it'll be really easy for Gregorius, but there may not be any). Gregorius should also have a meeting with his housemates a few days before the tribunal, but I don't have anything I explicitly want to discuss on camera, so can just handwave as having happened.
Other than that, there were a few minor things I wanted to introduce, but I wouldn't expect them to have much in the way of immediate repercussions.
I'm willing to handwave that issue with wild abandon--and considering that the tribunal sponsored us, I can't imagine it would be a problem.
Actually, now that I think about it, Viola should already be a citizen: while she was gauntleted in Stonehenge, she spent the next 16 years in Thebes, before leaving for 5 years to live in Andorra. She might also have picked up a couple of tokens along the way. I didn't write any of this into her character story or advancement log because I didn't yet have Sundered Eagle at the time.
It looks like somewhere between a week and two weeks--too long to get any labwork done that season, even if Gregorius returns instantly after the meeting.
(That said, whether it's 10 or 11 isn't going to make much difference to anything, as he won't be able to make full use of the book in its last season before he hits a level cap either way, and it won't make a difference to the level he reaches in the intervening seasons).
Let's say, like, a week from now? I'd like to clean the build point totals out of the covenant posts before anyone else arrives, so that we aren't changing things mid-stream.
The toys story is starting to come together in my head - we have two pints of reference (a) the toymaker who can craft them, and (b) the covenant listed income. So the story starst with the characters egtting agreement of supply from Ghepetto and then creatinga distribution line.
Which characters are you keen to include? I've got a few ideas that can scale so magi welcome. Will need somebody who can "speak" for the covenant to the fae at the very least. And somebody to help the trades.
Give me some character names and I should be able to start soon.
I'd like an apprentice system that's halfway realistic, and in which my character has some chance of obtaining an apprentice in the near future.