I don't know that we'll get to the Mongols in the next 6 months, but when we do, the interaction with the Amazons is going to be tricky, so I suppose I should handle both.
Scott
I'm pretty sure it doesn't apply, unless we experiment, and even if it did, I'm not sure it would stack with Viola's.
Scott
I'm also not 100% sure if Inventive Genius applies in this case or not, but am leaning towards "no".
If it does apply, it would stack - relevant virtues and flaws of lab assistants (not just Inventive Genius, but that's one of the more common ones) do stack, and they can stack multiple times (which is bad if you're talking about Waster of Vis) - see Apprentices pg 54.
How do you want to do stats for Chryse? At the moment, I have a rough idea of some key features, but don't have her fully statted out.
I would be happy to do them, but there's an obvious conflict of interest there. She's going to need to be played by someone, so maybe that someone (or one of those someones) could do it. Any volunteers?
Scott
That was my opinion, and looking back at Viola's advancement log, she didn't use Inventive Genius when binding Constantine, which is the closet analog to opening an apprentice to the Arts (it's one of the handful of lab activities that require only that a total be met, rather than adding a certain number of points a season--but she has used the bonus every time she's enchanted the bond, which works almost exactly like enchanting an invested device). However, tonight I thumbed through the various sections of the lab chapter, and I've since come to the conclusion that the Virtue description wasn't written very comprehensively. That description (on pg. 44) refers to new spells, items, and potions. By contrast, the section on experimentation says (on pg. 107) that experimentation (which receives a larger, +6, bonus from Inventive Genius) is possible not only on spells and enchantments (and it explicitly includes familiar enchantments here), but on investigating enchantments as well. Nothing says explicitly that experimentation is not possible for things that aren't "new" (and therefore wouldn't receive the +3 bonus under ordinary circumstances), but that would be the most logical rule, since experimentation with a lab text doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
My overall conclusion is that the Virtue description just doesn't include every possible type of lab activity (let alone types added by later books), and could probably more logically be written as "applies to any Lab Total for an activity that doesn't make use of a lab text." I don't dispute, however, that you could read things in different ways. If you took everything literally, for example, you would conclude that it's possible to experiment when investigating an enchantment, but that Inventive Genius doesn't give a bonus in this case. I think that last interpretation, though, is on a part with biblical literalism, though I'll admit that it's the same kind of reasoning that seems to have caused David Chart to conclude that wards must penetrate, despite all evidence pointing to the conclusion that he never intended the rule to work that way when he wrote it.
Scott
I was thinking about the problem of Opening the Arts for Chryse, and one thing that I (Timaios) could do perhaps is teach her Magic Theory. (As mentioned elsewhere, she can just have a mundane tutor for Latin.) Teaching 2 + Communication 1 + 3 + single student bonus 9 = 15 xp, which would give her Magic Theory 2. Having that could help Viola's lab total a little, and every little bit helps when trying to hit that InVi total of 60! Losing one season to help out at the new covenant and maybe get a small favor from Viola in return would be well worth Timaios' time.
I guess I could play Chryse, but I don't think I fully get her personality yet, would need more guidance on how she was intended to function.
To be honest, her actual personality hasn't emerged that much yet from under the weight of "small girl sees loving mother suddenly murder father and attempt to murder her". Plus creating different personalities for characters isn't one of my strengths anyway.
Basically, you've got a fair amount of freedom, if and when she gets past the "horribly taumatised" stage.
If you do want to play her, I can pm you with where I'd got to with her virtues and flaws so far.
I should flag that I have a conflict of interest here, in that Gregorius has Creative Block, which is basically the opposite of Inventive Genius (so I assume it would apply a penalty when Inventive Genius applies a bonus). I had been assuming it would apply when he tried to bind Alcimus.
How old is she exactly?
About 7 or 8.
For Creative Genius I’m obviously a fan of it applying broadly, that said - it needs to not be exploited.
I like the idea that the bonus applies when not using a lab text, as in those situations the magus is not applying any personal creative license. It’s also straight forward to determine.
Does it apply to learning from vis? If not then perhaps the rule should be “IG applies anytime the magus performs an activity which would produce their own lab text”.
If can make suggestions for personality, if you want the help--I just don't want to have any influence over her stats.
Scott
If we were to make that ruling, Viola would have a slightly higher bond score--just enough to give er a 1 in the Silver cord instead of a 0.
Scott
Studying from vis doesn't involve a lab total--in fact, it doesn't even require a lab. I think we're safe saying "anything that doesn't rely on a lab text". The problem with phrasing it negatively, as above, is that you run right back into the problem that, because the rules aren't written in a comprehensive fashion, it's possible that some activities that produce lab texts aren't explicitly described as such.
Scott
I think you should have most of the choice here, as is your apprentice. Separating the apprentice from play makes sense (and I’m happy to play her when the situations arise) but I see apprentice characters as aspects of the Magus, much like familiars. It should be your choice primarily to set the goalposts for the apprentice as it will have most affect on your magus.
Does the apprentice reflect the master? Fight against her?
Perhaps you set some broad stokes and a few of us will colour in the detail as much as needed?
I think to what extent the apprentice is an aspect of the magus is going to vary a lot by instance - there are certainly times when it's true, and I don't think that's unreasonable, but it won't always be. In this case, Chryse comes with some problems that are probably going to be more satisfying to try to solve / mitigate / work round if the same player isn't in charge of determining their manifestations.
[OOC: Should we switch thread for this discussion?]
I'd definitely agree that IG shouldn't apply when you have a lab text*.
Beyond that, possible ways of splitting it include:
- Have it only applying it to things it is possible to generate a lab text for - which would mean it wouldn't work for Familiar Bonds (but would for enchanting effects into them) or Opening the Arts, but would for longevity rituals (as they generate a lab text you can use to replicate the ritual without spending a season on it) and training magical animals, or just applying it whenever you're doing a lab activity that you don't have a lab text for.
- Have it apply to any effect where you have to generate points over a total, rather than where you're just generating a total. This is similar to option 1, but moves Longevity Rituals out of the group of things it applies to. This may be considered to contradict the text of the Virtue, depending on whether you consider "potions" to actually be a reference to longevity rituals using legacy edition wording, and also runs into the problem that longevity ritual improvements are probably the single most common type of research I've seen people with characters interested in, so it feels a bit nasty telling people the virtue doesn't work for it.
- Just have it apply to anything you don't already have a lab text for.
*I feel this is worth stating, as I have seen it argued before.
Option 3 is probably simplest, but isn't consistent with past practice. I also don't entirely like the feel - things like familiar bonds and opening Arts should be applying a known Hermetic process, rather than coming up with something new. I'm therefore inclined to option 1, or possibly option 2 if people don't like the potential ambiguity of what produces a lab text.
(moved the IG chat here)
The virtue is meant to represent a magical practitioner who is excellent in the lab, specifically being innovative and creative. Is making it apply broadly breaking the game? The more limitations and restrictions it has the less it feels like a virtue.
Breaking the game, no, but I don't think the more restrictive interpretations proposed make it weak either. It's around the same level as Puissant Magic Theory - a slightly larger bonus, but narrower in scope, and the extra utility from experimenting helps offset the ability to use more vis that Puissant Magic Theory gives.
Ultimately I'm happy with any reasonable interpretation, and I had been assuming previously that Creative Block would apply to Alcimus, so it / IG not applying would be a bonus.