It is nothing special. It just happens to feature an apple tree, with bad apples.
[tab][/tab] Added Google map links and some Photos, on all three stubs in Bad Apples Campaign
Hi,
a practical question.
Can we try to avoid re-editing previous posts, at least as a means of responding? The forum interface has no mechanism to list recent changes, other than new posts, so responses made as edits are easily missed. New posts are easily found, last in the thread, and threads with new posts are listed first in other listings.
Thanks, BTW, for flagging changes you made to early campaign posts. Edits are of course fine, when they are also announced in a new post.
I have a couple of questions concerning spells, and I do not know if the follow-up questions have been missed too. I do not mean to be impatient, I just don't want to go under the radar. They are in Arni's thread (fourth post). (1) is whether one can use voice range (> Per) with unintelligible sound; (2) is how range and target is interpreted on certain Auram spells where wind is used to affect a person or other target.
Oh, sorry :S Just trying to keep posts to a minimum, I hate long threads. Plus on hindsight, each easier to read the post and the answer to the post without intervening posts, but that ok, I'll do it the regular way here.
The spells: As a general rule, as per character creation guideline I posted, I do not allow spells created by players and those not in books. I do allow all spells in books, and I can discuss some modifications.
CrIm3 Voice of the Mute Wizard No own spells at beginning; you ight find a previously published spell and ask to tweak it though. (I also do not think you can cast spells using the image)
ReTe10 Touch of Giant's Strength Thats a tough one. Mainly because you added no restrictions and there are tons of restrictions. Each restriction should be discussed individually, so I'll table them. Dropping voice to touch is +1. Adding weight would be a seize issue. Seize is governed on pg 113 insert, use that as a guideline. Concentration to sun can be made with +1, provided it is clear about needing concentration to move the item. However you could wave that with the Touch restriction (kinda like, when you touch the object, you move it. But then you will need constant physical contact). I would avoid this spell for starts, why don;t you post it as a question in these forums for smarted people than me to debate? 
CrAu35 Incantation of Lightning I think I answered that somewhere. Ok, Voice range needs voice. IF you cast without voice, your range is 0-personal. However for Bjornae, thats why they have sensory magic mystery, it is exactly what you seek. You can cast the spell without component and you use a sensory component, including sound, to define range (silent cast the spell, screech or roar to define range)
Mu(Re)Au20 Talons of the Winds Yes the target is the wind, large area is Voice (for Voice ranges see pg 83 insert. It states exactly how many paces), Rego component protects the caster. (1)Touch range would change the wind blowing in a very small area around you, and you would be immune to it. O_o
[tab][/tab] (2) You would turn it into a variant of Circling Winds of Protection that only does damage to those that are in melee range to you, maybe destroying some projectiles. Whether its 15 or 20 depends on the concentration vs diameter duration, I'll have to research that in this case.
Cr(Re)Au30 Wings of Soaring Wind You mean the rego component? I thinks that for controlling the wind. If you want to affect an item but not affect you, that would probably by an extra +1 and thus magnitude. If I understood your question correctly that is, I could be wrong.
CrAu25 Pull of the Skybound Winds Yes, and you can start with it, just make a note thats its sight range.
(1) As discussed for unintelligent sounds, see Bjornae sensory Magic
(2) Well... Its like this. Spells affect the wind, which does stuff to people and items. To avoid the problem of targeting (groups, boundaries etc) they solve this problem by using Voice/Sight range, and using the wind in this 'area' to do stuff to targets in that area. Otherwise there would be much bickering on who the target is, where it is etc, and a very unnecessary increase in the magnitudes. Its cheating basically....
I also assumed that it would not work for spell casting; I wanted it for communication. But ok, I have to invent it then. Or use the MuAn14 or whatever from HoH:MC. No problem.
First of all. I don't understand what you mean, since «table» has opposite meanings in English and in American, and I don't know which you write 
Sorry, I was unclear. The restriction I wanted to drop was the 6' above ground. That's artificial. All the others are related to range/duration/target, and can be handled via the guidelines.
Well, size is tricky still, because the spell description does not use the size guideline for the form, but relates it to a person of Str +5 instead. A person, even of Str +5, cannot lift 10 cubic paces of dirt, no matter how slowly he moves. Not even close. But this is not really the point, I only wanted to increase size if there were spare levels after all other modification, so we can leave this.
Dropping range to touch should be -1, not +1. Thus the question is really if you will accept dropping the 6' above ground restriction for +1 magnitude (more? less?)
You did start on an answer, but the conclusion was not clear to me. I commented again via edit, which you presumably did not see.
I'll repeat the main point, probably better phrased since I have had more time to think.
What you describe is not how sensory magic is defined in HoH:MC. Sensory magic is sensory target, which means that you affect everyone within earshot. The range is then always personal. So at the bottom line, this is entirely a different kettle of fish.
What is still unclear is if an animal sound is considered to be a voice for the purpose of voice range. It is absolutely not made explicit anywhere that I have seen. It is clear that it is not intelligible speech, and therefore requires quiet magic or a -10 penalty, but it is not obvious that the range depends on intelligibility. You keep referring to HoH(Bjornaer), but I cannot find anything there which is relevant to the question. How do you define voice?
Sorry for keeping on about this. Voice range is new in 5ed so I have never thought it through before.
OK, so you use the voice ranges on p. 83 to define the size of the target as well!? You affect every wind/part of the wind within the range, not just an individual wind.
This does make a certain sense, and it is very playable, but I do think it has some implication contrary to RAW. «Transforms a wind into an abrasive medium that tears and claws at everything in its path.» To me this means that the transformation is still effective as the wind moves out of the spells range, as is normal for most spells. On page 125: «A base Individual for Auram is a weather phenomenon that affects the area within a standard Boundary — an area one hundred paces across.» I cannot see anything in the rules to say that the size of the target is influenced by the range of the spell.
It would also be inconsistent with other canon spells, such as Chamber of Spring Breezes (touch/Sun/ind), which creates a weather phenomenon covering a room, even if the touch range does not cover the room.
If you want to stick with this interpretation, could you write out a very precise house rule on it?
This is not RAW, but I'll accept a house ruling on it, but please write it up in detail in the house rule thread, and some care should be made to make sure that canon spells are either consistent with the house rule, or explicitly mentioned as exceptions. Otherwise, we shall get into new discussions when we introduce new spells based on RAW.
No, if we use your interpretation, that all these spells affect a part of the weather phenomenon constrained by the spell range, and not the whole individual target, then most of my ideas make no sense whatsoever.
I should like one spell which allows me to carry a load as eagle, say from the covenant court yard to the top of one of the famous towers. It can be done with either ReTe (as discussed above), but requiring a modification to the unseen porter. Alternatively, it can be done with Cr(Re)Au. If we can resolve one of the two, we don't need the other.
There is nothing in the guidelines to suggest that it would be harder than Wings of the Soaring Wind, if I fly with the wind and can use touch range. Adding a magnitude, and it becomes voice range, which may be easier. (Using the voice spell from HoH:MC if necessary.) I cannot do Cr(Re)Au > 30, so if I need the extra magnitude I cannot do it.
No, I think the Rego component makes sense, so it the question is really if I can use the wind to move anything, as long as I touch the wind.
FYI. I posted the two tricky questions on the general ArM forum. For the voice range as heartbeast, I got back a reference to a previous discussion:
The majority seems to agree that voice range can be defined by sounds not necessarily intelligible speech. This applies both to enchanted items and heartbeasts.
For the other question, there is only one reply so far, so let's wait and see if there is more.
Is it a good idea to quote the original message below like this, to save people from searching back through the thread? If not, I can edit and remove it.
Touch of Giant's Strength
Touch is +1, Voice is +2 (thats what I meant with -1, you reduce it by 1). So... Base 3, Touch +1, Sun +2, Size +1. We do it lvl 20, it increases volume of object by 10 and you can eliminate the height. Appropriate requisites still apply, as does finesse. You need to touch the object to move it. Since we added size and the speed is relevant to the weight, you could have the eagle carry a normal bag at high speed this way. OR Base 3, Touch +1, Sun +2, lvl 15, we drop the height requirement and keep everything else? Thoughts?
the whole range/target thing I see it like this
You target 1 thing, the wind right? But that could be anything from a stray breeze (barely filling a room), to the North wind (probably covering half of Europe). That range restricts you, effectively defining the area of effect. Otherwise RAW would had to use pg 113 Targets and Sizes. Wind magic probably cannot use room or structure in this case, so you would be defined either by individual, group or boundary. Almost non of the Auram spells do that. Lets see an actual example:
Jupiter's Resounding Blow pg 125
Voice, Individual
However the spell affects everyone directly underneath. The individual is the air/wind. But it doesn't specify how many are the underneath people. Hence you define the are of effect by Voice. It effect everyone in range of Voice. Also note that it adds a magnitude for unusual, spell functions indoor. It could use room instead but doesnt.
Most of the Auram spells seem to function like that. Lets see Incantation now. It affects Individual, one person. How far can that person be? Voice range. But pg 83 table states that Voice means different things depending on how high your voice is. At loud its 50 paces. At Silent, its 0 paces (caster only). Is that more clear?
Talons of the Winds and Chamber of Spring Breezes
Applying the Muto effect to the Wind causes the same problem. How big is the wind. Is it too big? Should we be using size modifier? How high is the phenomenon? If its a whole gale, would it effect the whole coast of France? My interpretation is that the Range part limits the effect without increasing the magnitude. You are correct about the chamber... it could be redefined as Touch+1 Sun+2 , Room +2. Thats one magnitude more. It instead adds that unnatural +1 and you get a cheaper spell.
As for the carrying stuff, you can do Perdo to remove the weight entirely (see the Verditius he already has a canon spell that does that), or a muto spell to make it more light. Rego isnt the only option.
(I'll now post about the next post. This is heavy stuff, and I dont think I am the best person to answer :S )
Right, read your questions and the answers. As I said, there are wiser people than me out there, good call.
Based on the Muto flaw, Voice is not based on spellcasting words. You will take the -10 penalty (or none with Quiet x2) and still use Voice, depending on how loud the 'sounds' are.
We will do this reversal, effective immediately (so your spells in eagle can be defined by its screech)
As for the Talon question; I am still not convinced about the reasoning, but we will go with what most are saying, so #2 it is, 100 x 100 paces circural regardless of where the wind blows to.
Please ignore above post
Thanks for concluding, and even more thanks for the conclusion that I am most comfortable with. Voice range and auram targets is tricky business; it is good to know that we have arrived on the same page. I surely did not understand all the implications before the discussion started.
I shall see how many levels I have to spare, and review the Muto/Perdo options you suggest, before I decide. Thanks a lot.
If I understand you correctly, we can have any of these
Level 20. Base 3 Touch +1, Sun +2, Size +1 No height restriction +1
Level 15. Base 3 Touch +1 Sun +2 No height restriction +1
Level 15. Base 3 Touch +1 Conc +1 Size +1 No height restriction +1
Level 10. Base 3 Touch +1 Conc +1 No height restriction +1
Or up five levels to keep voice +2.
The Auram options would of course be very in character for the Auram expert, but no doubt ReTe is both safer and lower level.
em...no two choices only, besides original spell.
Touch +1, Sun +2, (size 0 or size +1).
-[tab][/tab] Touch to use spell on item
-[tab][/tab] Sunset. You arent concentrating on it, so you need to touch it continuously to move it
-[tab][/tab] Since you got the restriction to touch it, the height hindrance is removed as a freebie
-[tab][/tab] You choose whether or not to take size as it might affect speed
If the height restriction removal is a freebie, I can't get the numbers to compute.
Base 3 +2 for Sun is 5. +1 magnitude for touch is 10, not 15.
If we add +1 for size, it is still only 15, and not 20 as you wrote.
(ST EDIT) Roger, my bad. Take them as 10 and 15.
I think lvl 15 (resp. 20) is fair, especially if the touch restriction means that I can dispell it simply by letting go and stop touching.
I have reviewed Arni, and I think he is good to go, assuming that we do not want to change the clan, I took the ReTe 15 version without size modifier. ReTe20 is beyond meat the moment. FYI.
Adding another Bjornaer to Theban Chronicle, Pavo's Parens. darkwing will have to flesh him/her out a bit (not clan Ilfetu)
So now Pavo and I may initiate a sept, is that right? I assume there are no candidate sept mates within a long distance!? Is there any red tape to cut to be recognised as a sept? Do we have to spend the Autumn 2014 to trace lineages, and find a common ancestor after whom we can name the sept?
Or, wait, if Pavo's parens is not Ilfetu, we might not have any common ancestor after Birna!? Peculiar. Can we call the sept Birna then? Probably not.
What can we then do for name?
I got no idea on the sept thing, I need to re-read Bjornaer and research it.
[tab][/tab][tab][/tab][tab][/tab]State of Things
Ok, so we are 6 people. I got Arni, Aristocles and Pavo almost done. Raven needs that familiar, Scylax and Roland coming up nicely. I see two companions so far, thats ok we have time. I am slowly transferring sheets to the announcement section, please check for mistakes. Also add personality traits, casting and voting sigils, religion etc. You know, the small stuff.
As players you need to do the Charter (or leave it as normal to the discretion of the ST), decide on the governance structure of the Covenant and maybe how the mundanes/grogs/custos govern themselves.
For my part I will be giving out some BP to each magi next week and put up the scheduler on the last week of April. I also hope to start the pre-story on that last week, just some fun interaction between characters, mainly magi. Am I forgetting anything important?
I just noted that HoH:MC explicitly say that the septs are informal grouping, so forming one should be straight forward if we get on good terms with eachother. There may be only two things you need to decide
-
Are there any clan mates within 100-200 miles? If there are, are any potential sept mates?
(ST EDIT 2)No. A dolphin and a horse in the Aegean, three vultures in Anatolia, and Pavo's parens probably in Constantinople -
How can we trace the Hermetic lineage? Is it something we know or know whom to ask about, or does it take research?
As I read the Bjornaer, this is something we would find out, taking a season of research if needed. I suppose we can just invent the lineage as players without interfering with your plans.
This is an out of character discussion, is it? We decide what has been decided before the PC join? Thus we do not need to worry about what the seniors think?
(ST EDIT) Yes you will decide what the two founders put in the charter before your character joined, OOC.
What does the staff look like? Number of grogs? Any qualified leaders? Number of specialists? Number of labourers/servants? It is very hard to think about how to manage staff without knowing the numbers ...
(ST EDIT) I meat system of governance not actual managing people. I have not yet done servants/teamsters, need final number of people. Laborers are about 20. Specialists are a blacksmith and a carpenter. There are dependents. Should be 4 grogs, but someone was doing a mercenary captain and would bring 5 more I think.
- 1 or 2 personal grog/servants per magus, I think you said at some point. OK, it is a sizeable staff at the end of the day.
Yes, I know that managing people is not all of the charter, but it is part of what needs looking after and thus it is part of the picture.
(ST EDIT 2) I meant already present due to Founders. What each Magi brings or not, I don't know yet.
Let's make a new thread on charter discussion. First one with some suggestions should create it
(ST EDIT 2) Sure
OK. I have tried to boot the discussion. let's see if anyone catches on.
Okay, I've seen IonianD mention a couple times that he wants the Order secretive and paranoid.
I'm trying to imagine how this works in practice. Especially since the Order forces other mages to take Parma Magic. At its heart that's what "Join or Die" means. "You have two choices: You either get legal protection from magi and get Parma Magic or DIE!" That doesn't sound like paranoia or being secretive. So how does being secretive work when you have a legal compulsion to induct every other person who could learn it that you meet? This is made even worse because Bonisagus are required to share their researches. What's to stop a Sahir from coming up to Raven, swearing the Oath, asking the secret for Parma Magic, copying everything she's written and then wandering off to share it with all his friends? (Other than ignorance on the part of the Sahir.)
Obviously individual members of the Order can have secrets from other members of the Order, but how is the Order overall secretive?
Then the Theban Tribunal in particular seems a bad fit for being secretive and paranoid. We're supposed to be friendly and cooperative down here. That's sort of the antithesis of paranoia and secrets. What's your vision for secrecy and paranoia in the Theban tribunal? How does being paranoid work with the culture of Thebes? They're secretive and paranoid, but the locations of the common vis sources aren't secret?
I am glad you asked 
[tab][/tab]This has been an issue for me with AM for a while. Why can't an outsider, despite the benefits of the Order, just join, learn whatever he can, then leave, ''defect'' and spill the beans on Parma to outsiders? The answer is the 'DIE!' part of the attitude. If/when the Order finds out such a person, they Wizard March him on the spot (its why Diedne remnants and outsiders who take Parma in the main book take the Dark secret and are in danger or dying). If a whole cabal is found taking advantage of Parma, a large part of the Order will make war on them, purge them, hunt them down or reluctantly absorb them into the Order (see Gruagachan in Loch Legan). If the situation turns dire, the Guernicus cast a Fenicil Greater Ritual like they did with Diedne. This is a matter of survival for the Order, hence the ''Die!...or join?'' attitude. An interesting read is Lineage of Pralix, HoH:S pg 126-129, it kinda hints that the Order takes the long view in integration. Bonisagus magi are required by the Oath to share what they find within the Order, and its only them that are required to. In return they are awarded a special place in the Order (though they have long been supplanted), they gain renown from their research, and are afforded special privileges by the Code.
[tab][/tab]The Order is secretive itself by enforcing very very strict rules on privacy. Your nice magi neighbor might be friendly day by day, enter his sanctum uninvited and he can kill you with impunity. Your magus can kill mundanes with almost impunity (to the whining of Jerbiton), but use magic to scry by accident another magus and you are in very hot water. Another good read is the relationship between Mistridge and Bellanquine, and how they shared books.
[tab][/tab]The Tribunal of Thebes promotes co-operation in legislative, defensive, bureaucratic and government issues, not research. They have a system with Token where you can get healing, apprentices and excellent longevity rituals. But if you ask another Covenant access to their knowledge, you will get thrown out. Of note is the Token use for assistance in the laboratory and services for the common good (both page 29). In effect they 'lure' magi to somewhat co-operate by changing the coin of the Tribunal from vis to Tokens and Shards... and no-one wants shards.
So are tokens acting to contradict the otherwise secretive nature? Because a bunch of the example tasks include sharing knowledge. Although, letting another magi help in your lab would seem to go pretty strongly against being secretive and there you are giving a token.
(ST EDIT) I wouldn't say contradict, 'lure' is more of an apt. There are only two instances of 'sharing knowledge' that is personal, and the magus can always decline (I must say though, I think those particular examples are meant for common knowledge articles not personal research. That ''deemed of import'' clause is very specific). As for lab assistance...well the Magus is asking for help, presumably he is over his head.
Also you mentioned not trusting grogs with magic theory over in the charter thread. It would be rather simple for magi to take "precautions" against a grog escaping with magical knowledge. For example:
Burn the Fleeing Grog - CrIg - 20
R: Arcane D: Mom T: Ind
The target burns, taking +5 damage.
Base 4 +4 arcane.
Not nice, and honestly sort of paranoid, but you want the Order paranoid right?
(ST EDIT) Definitely mean :S
Mean or not mean. Whether or not you intend the spell for fleeing grogs. The spell is a plausible one to find in published grimoires and a plausible one to learn for any magus taking an interest in malign Ignem applications.
Keeping arcane connections to all your grogs is also plausible. You don't even have to be paranoid. There are benign applications too, say the grog is lost in the mountains. Or you are.
I am sure most magi can come up with a revenge if a grog misbehaves, one way or another, without necessarily being paranoid enough to plan for it. Cat's spell is just an illustration.
[tab][/tab]Hmmm.... did Solon drop? I dont see his character