OOC: General

Retired Play by Post Campaigns Ars Magica 5th Edition: Bad Apples
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Thanks for concluding, and even more thanks for the conclusion that I am most comfortable with. Voice range and auram targets is tricky business; it is good to know that we have arrived on the same page. I surely did not understand all the implications before the discussion started.

I shall see how many levels I have to spare, and review the Muto/Perdo options you suggest, before I decide. Thanks a lot.

If I understand you correctly, we can have any of these
Level 20. Base 3 Touch +1, Sun +2, Size +1 No height restriction +1
Level 15. Base 3 Touch +1 Sun +2 No height restriction +1
Level 15. Base 3 Touch +1 Conc +1 Size +1 No height restriction +1
Level 10. Base 3 Touch +1 Conc +1 No height restriction +1
Or up five levels to keep voice +2.

The Auram options would of course be very in character for the Auram expert, but no doubt ReTe is both safer and lower level. :slight_smile:

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em...no two choices only, besides original spell.

Touch +1, Sun +2, (size 0 or size +1).
-[tab][/tab] Touch to use spell on item
-[tab][/tab] Sunset. You arent concentrating on it, so you need to touch it continuously to move it
-[tab][/tab] Since you got the restriction to touch it, the height hindrance is removed as a freebie
-[tab][/tab] You choose whether or not to take size as it might affect speed

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If the height restriction removal is a freebie, I can't get the numbers to compute.
Base 3 +2 for Sun is 5. +1 magnitude for touch is 10, not 15.
If we add +1 for size, it is still only 15, and not 20 as you wrote.

(ST EDIT) Roger, my bad. Take them as 10 and 15.

I think lvl 15 (resp. 20) is fair, especially if the touch restriction means that I can dispell it simply by letting go and stop touching.

I have reviewed Arni, and I think he is good to go, assuming that we do not want to change the clan, I took the ReTe 15 version without size modifier. ReTe20 is beyond meat the moment. FYI.

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Adding another Bjornaer to Theban Chronicle, Pavo's Parens. darkwing will have to flesh him/her out a bit (not clan Ilfetu)

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So now Pavo and I may initiate a sept, is that right? I assume there are no candidate sept mates within a long distance!? Is there any red tape to cut to be recognised as a sept? Do we have to spend the Autumn 2014 to trace lineages, and find a common ancestor after whom we can name the sept?

Or, wait, if Pavo's parens is not Ilfetu, we might not have any common ancestor after Birna!? Peculiar. Can we call the sept Birna then? Probably not.
What can we then do for name?

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I got no idea on the sept thing, I need to re-read Bjornaer and research it.

[tab][/tab][tab][/tab][tab][/tab]State of Things

Ok, so we are 6 people. I got Arni, Aristocles and Pavo almost done. Raven needs that familiar, Scylax and Roland coming up nicely. I see two companions so far, thats ok we have time. I am slowly transferring sheets to the announcement section, please check for mistakes. Also add personality traits, casting and voting sigils, religion etc. You know, the small stuff.
As players you need to do the Charter (or leave it as normal to the discretion of the ST), decide on the governance structure of the Covenant and maybe how the mundanes/grogs/custos govern themselves.
For my part I will be giving out some BP to each magi next week and put up the scheduler on the last week of April. I also hope to start the pre-story on that last week, just some fun interaction between characters, mainly magi. Am I forgetting anything important?

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I just noted that HoH:MC explicitly say that the septs are informal grouping, so forming one should be straight forward if we get on good terms with eachother. There may be only two things you need to decide

  1. Are there any clan mates within 100-200 miles? If there are, are any potential sept mates?
    (ST EDIT 2)No. A dolphin and a horse in the Aegean, three vultures in Anatolia, and Pavo's parens probably in Constantinople

  2. How can we trace the Hermetic lineage? Is it something we know or know whom to ask about, or does it take research?
    As I read the Bjornaer, this is something we would find out, taking a season of research if needed. I suppose we can just invent the lineage as players without interfering with your plans.

This is an out of character discussion, is it? We decide what has been decided before the PC join? Thus we do not need to worry about what the seniors think?
(ST EDIT) Yes you will decide what the two founders put in the charter before your character joined, OOC.

What does the staff look like? Number of grogs? Any qualified leaders? Number of specialists? Number of labourers/servants? It is very hard to think about how to manage staff without knowing the numbers ...
(ST EDIT) I meat system of governance not actual managing people. I have not yet done servants/teamsters, need final number of people. Laborers are about 20. Specialists are a blacksmith and a carpenter. There are dependents. Should be 4 grogs, but someone was doing a mercenary captain and would bring 5 more I think.

  • 1 or 2 personal grog/servants per magus, I think you said at some point. OK, it is a sizeable staff at the end of the day.
    Yes, I know that managing people is not all of the charter, but it is part of what needs looking after and thus it is part of the picture.
    (ST EDIT 2) I meant already present due to Founders. What each Magi brings or not, I don't know yet.

Let's make a new thread on charter discussion. First one with some suggestions should create it :slight_smile:
(ST EDIT 2) Sure

OK. I have tried to boot the discussion. let's see if anyone catches on.

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Okay, I've seen IonianD mention a couple times that he wants the Order secretive and paranoid.

I'm trying to imagine how this works in practice. Especially since the Order forces other mages to take Parma Magic. At its heart that's what "Join or Die" means. "You have two choices: You either get legal protection from magi and get Parma Magic or DIE!" That doesn't sound like paranoia or being secretive. So how does being secretive work when you have a legal compulsion to induct every other person who could learn it that you meet? This is made even worse because Bonisagus are required to share their researches. What's to stop a Sahir from coming up to Raven, swearing the Oath, asking the secret for Parma Magic, copying everything she's written and then wandering off to share it with all his friends? (Other than ignorance on the part of the Sahir.)

Obviously individual members of the Order can have secrets from other members of the Order, but how is the Order overall secretive?

Then the Theban Tribunal in particular seems a bad fit for being secretive and paranoid. We're supposed to be friendly and cooperative down here. That's sort of the antithesis of paranoia and secrets. What's your vision for secrecy and paranoia in the Theban tribunal? How does being paranoid work with the culture of Thebes? They're secretive and paranoid, but the locations of the common vis sources aren't secret?

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I am glad you asked :smiley:

[tab][/tab]This has been an issue for me with AM for a while. Why can't an outsider, despite the benefits of the Order, just join, learn whatever he can, then leave, ''defect'' and spill the beans on Parma to outsiders? The answer is the 'DIE!' part of the attitude. If/when the Order finds out such a person, they Wizard March him on the spot (its why Diedne remnants and outsiders who take Parma in the main book take the Dark secret and are in danger or dying). If a whole cabal is found taking advantage of Parma, a large part of the Order will make war on them, purge them, hunt them down or reluctantly absorb them into the Order (see Gruagachan in Loch Legan). If the situation turns dire, the Guernicus cast a Fenicil Greater Ritual like they did with Diedne. This is a matter of survival for the Order, hence the ''Die!...or join?'' attitude. An interesting read is Lineage of Pralix, HoH:S pg 126-129, it kinda hints that the Order takes the long view in integration. Bonisagus magi are required by the Oath to share what they find within the Order, and its only them that are required to. In return they are awarded a special place in the Order (though they have long been supplanted), they gain renown from their research, and are afforded special privileges by the Code.
[tab][/tab]The Order is secretive itself by enforcing very very strict rules on privacy. Your nice magi neighbor might be friendly day by day, enter his sanctum uninvited and he can kill you with impunity. Your magus can kill mundanes with almost impunity (to the whining of Jerbiton), but use magic to scry by accident another magus and you are in very hot water. Another good read is the relationship between Mistridge and Bellanquine, and how they shared books.
[tab][/tab]The Tribunal of Thebes promotes co-operation in legislative, defensive, bureaucratic and government issues, not research. They have a system with Token where you can get healing, apprentices and excellent longevity rituals. But if you ask another Covenant access to their knowledge, you will get thrown out. Of note is the Token use for assistance in the laboratory and services for the common good (both page 29). In effect they 'lure' magi to somewhat co-operate by changing the coin of the Tribunal from vis to Tokens and Shards... and no-one wants shards.

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So are tokens acting to contradict the otherwise secretive nature? Because a bunch of the example tasks include sharing knowledge. Although, letting another magi help in your lab would seem to go pretty strongly against being secretive and there you are giving a token.

(ST EDIT) I wouldn't say contradict, 'lure' is more of an apt. There are only two instances of 'sharing knowledge' that is personal, and the magus can always decline (I must say though, I think those particular examples are meant for common knowledge articles not personal research. That ''deemed of import'' clause is very specific). As for lab assistance...well the Magus is asking for help, presumably he is over his head.

Also you mentioned not trusting grogs with magic theory over in the charter thread. It would be rather simple for magi to take "precautions" against a grog escaping with magical knowledge. For example:

Burn the Fleeing Grog - CrIg - 20
R: Arcane D: Mom T: Ind
The target burns, taking +5 damage.
Base 4 +4 arcane.

Not nice, and honestly sort of paranoid, but you want the Order paranoid right?

(ST EDIT) Definitely mean :S

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Mean or not mean. Whether or not you intend the spell for fleeing grogs. The spell is a plausible one to find in published grimoires and a plausible one to learn for any magus taking an interest in malign Ignem applications.

Keeping arcane connections to all your grogs is also plausible. You don't even have to be paranoid. There are benign applications too, say the grog is lost in the mountains. Or you are.

I am sure most magi can come up with a revenge if a grog misbehaves, one way or another, without necessarily being paranoid enough to plan for it. Cat's spell is just an illustration.

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[tab][/tab]Hmmm.... did Solon drop? I dont see his character

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His character, the Flambeau is there. viewtopic.php?f=83&t=33429
He last edited it on Friday, and he is listed with a visit yesterday. I find it unlikely that he has dropped without telling you. Have you sent him a PM?

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Still present! Although things have been occupied as of late. Mechanically I have a few adjustments I would like to make to Roland, but that side should nearly be done. Next step is background.

I haven't really started the companion yet. I have ideas, but will likely only get going on him this weekend, if that works.

(ST EDIT) Sorry, for some reason I couldn't find your sheet ><
Take all the time you need.

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IonianD, where do you want us to tell you what we want to do in relation to the scheduler? Post here? PM you? Pavo would like to go to Delos in the summer, and will definitely not be going to the caves in autumn.

I've got a companion draft ready and will post it later.

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I assume you want us to post our activity desires here. I definitely prefer an open discussion over PM, whenever possible...
For the record, these are my ideas a priori. I do not necessarily expect everything to work out as planned.

Arni

Number one priority for Arni is to locate new locations of magic interest, including auras, ancestor sites, and vis sources.
To get the minor clan mystery (which is an important goal) he needs to locate an ancestor site and claim it for the clan.
Activities below relate more or less to thes objectives.

Spring 1215: Exploration of the Tymfi mounains (mainly) in eagle shape.
I assume that this counts as practice area lore for 7xp, as per core rules. I don't know if this should be Epirus lore or Tymfy lore, or whatever.
I am looking particularly for magic locations, and I really hope to pick up leads which can turn into a story in another season.

Summer 1215.
Attend the gathering of 12 years and do the initiation + The Trial and the Oath of the Prophet
This excludes the available adventures.
The gathering gives 5xp in House Bjornaer Lore. Can I take a speciality in self-initiation, as has Pavo?

While at the Gathering, he will make an active effort to make contacts with other magi Bjonaer, first priority is other young magi, second priority is the rest of the clan. He will try to make lasting contacts for

  1. Correspondence (whether or not Covenants rule about correspondence applies). Call it «pen pals».
  2. Book trades, most realistically with other Spring covenants. Latin books for vis or book for book.
    (+ the mystagogue, but this has been settled I think)

Autumn 1215.
I understand that he has to take an adventure this season, since none is available earlier.
He really should take part in of Things Left Buried too Long . He has a preference for mystery :slight_smile:
If I understand it correctly, with a one-week adventure, he still has time to set up a lab but cannot study for xp. Is that right?
If so, there are a couple of options, depending on what happens with lab allocations:

  1. Complete a lab.
  2. Use a lab.
  3. Self-initiate the Sensory Magic Mystery. This is ease factor 9 (18 for minor myster unknown to mystagogue, less 9 for recent major ordeal). With a self-initiation speciality, this is possible without a script (+0).

sir Georgios

Spring 1215. Take part in the adventure. Write a tractatus in Latin on Epirus Lore (q12).
Summer 1215. Read Raven vol 1 (unless stopped).
Autumn 1215. Take part in the cave crawl (assuming that Arni does the other adventure). + write another tractatus on Epirus Lore (q12).
[I shall give the books titles when the plan is final.]

If left to his own devices, I think sir Georgios will pick up Raven's books on Magic Theory (assuming that they are just left in the library/book case) - the first one in Summer 1215 as stated above. After having read both of them, he will write a double tractatus (one on Magic Theory and one on Theology) on Hermetic magic in light of the divine (or something similarly unorthodox but educational), but that's next year at best.

If the covenant require any of the following, he shall be happy to oblige:

  1. Teach martial abilities to grogs. (12xp/season in a class of five)
  2. Teach Romaic Greek or Latin to whomever needs it (same xp as above)
  3. Teach Epirus lore.
  4. Write books on Romaic Greek and Latin for those who need it.
  5. Possibly copying books, but that requires some learning first (scribe, magic theory).
    BTW. Can he teach Classical or Church Greek based on Romaic Greek 6? It is not entirely clear.

Grogs

I'd like to fill inn with grogs in the other adventures.

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[tab][/tab] My reasoning for doing things here is, I want you as players to co-ordinate on who goes where, so that everyone gets to have some fun.

[tab][/tab]So on the Bjornaer... It happens that the Rite of 12 years is during the summer of 1215. I won't be running the whole rite, but I might do some parts of it. Wandering Isles starts 4 days before midsummer, ends near the end of August. On foot, I suppose its more than one month to Crintera and the same amount of time from Crintera (no idea how fast for flight). Participating in the Rite gains you 5 xp. Correspondence and books are simple enough. The mystery thing, I'll need the script (I think its 21?) do you have an already published one or are you going to make it OOC? I am fine with both of you going, either of you going or both of you skipping the Rite.

[tab][/tab] Scouting the mountains is indeed 7xp for Area lore. You can pick Epirus lore or Tymfi lore, with whatever specializations (I still need to find aerial combat rules, hmmm)

[tab][/tab] Unless expressed otherwise (or have the wealth virtue and such) Companions are going to be covered by the Covenant in expenses (hence my 2 horses comment). Naturally they will be put to work, nothing is free in this life. 2 seasons of work is usually enough. Being a man-at-arms is work by the way. (Does a double take on what the knight does) Wait, wait.... I have no idea what language Raven is writing her tractacus (cause she only has vulgar latin on 5), and the knight has Latin 3. Plus...isn't he pious? Wouldn't that be a bit heretical? I have no idea, lets discuss opinions on this...
Grogs are fine in any form or manner

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Raven has a specialty in Hermetic for Latin, so she's Latin 5 when it relates to Hermetic stuff. For example, the Arts or Hermetic Magic Theory.

(ST EDIT) My bad, was looking at different sheet. How many acclaim points is that Creo Tractatus, 5?

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Reading the book does not imply that he endorses it. He picks up the books out of curiosity, without knowing what it really is. What he actually thinks of magic once discovered is an open question... Writing about it is going to be very controversial from an Hermetic viewpoint, but that does not necessarily make it any less instructional.

(ST EDIT) Interesting concept. What do others think?

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Raven
Spring: Raven will take a language class in Classic Greek or Latin if those are available. Otherwise Raven will hang out with her family. (Practice Arabic 8xp)
Summer: Raven will finish lab set up. Raven would like a building outside the tower if at all possible: See, having a family.
Fall: Raven will write a tractatus on Ig. Q11
Fall Adventure: Raven will join Things Left Buried too Long
Winter: Raven will hang out with her family. (Practice Arabic 8xp)

(ST EDIT) I am not doing second winter yet. At start of campaign please ask for a separate building built. This will take time, meaning that at summer you will have started building your laboratory, not finished :S

Ioannes
Spring: Ioannes will take a class in Classic Greek or Latin if those are available. Otherwise Latin Practice (8xp)
Summer: Ioannes will follow along to the tribunal!
Summer Adventure: Ioannes will follow along to the tribunal!
Fall: Ioannes will write a tractatus on Artes Lib in Classical Greek. Q14
Winter: Ioannes will teach Artes Liberales class (In Classical Greek). Open to everyone. Q18! Take that!