[OOC] Table Talk, Volume One

I'll set that in motion. Nonna's pretty sure she can press past the Redcaps if she's adamant enough. It's more interesting if Nonna can get in. :wink:.

Jonathan will invent the Strawberry Daquri indeed! And the Hot Tub Paty! And Swiss Miss Coco :wink:

I think it is creepy, so Jonathan thinks it's creepy. It caught me off guard, so I use the excuse of it being not the English way.

In all honesty, it struck me as strange and suspicious at first, and when Francisca refused it tipped the balance for me.

for your question Marko... you may not hear any of it because you are having a conflict with Pryor because you will not disrobe. Whereas Korvin and Ilmari have disrobed and gone to the cave with the hot springs.

That's what I thought. I was wondering if I could over hear anything from my position.

I assume that if Vis is used in a spell it must be either the formulaic or Technique of the spell. I have 3 Creo vis but no Corpus.

The Technique or the Form, do you mean? Yeah.

And vis cannot be used to make a spontaneous Creo spell permanent, only boost the effective level/duration.

I don't think J hit the water, only fell near it, his blood running "downhill" and into the pool. So there's no "diving" or "pulling above water" or out of the spring is necessary - he had been out, by the cave entrance, as far as I can tell - but either way works the same, just so everyone has the same image of what's going on.

If J is semi-conscious, he's not going to be able to cooperate by dropping his Parma (as if he would anyway?). It's Chirurgy time, boys n' girls! (And what we really need is red-hot iron and a quick cauterization. And Ilmari doesn't even have to decide not to help provide that.)

However, Chirurgy is one of the abilities that cannot be used unless at least a little is known - no score, no luck. (And I think the total number of PC's with Chirurgy is... zero.) :stuck_out_tongue:

Speak for yourself.. Chirgery 1 here.

And I wanted the Vis because I have The Chirurgeon's Healing Touch.

If I over improved, sorry. You're right: either way he's on terra firma, wet, and bleeding.

No point in not trying to get him to drop his parma. He definitely won't if we don't ask. I imagine he can heal himself in any case (assuming he wants to). If not, let Korvin take a whack at him.

As far as everyone being on the same image: Apple and Korvin are kneeling over J. Ilmari is standing not far from the entrance, and probably near by Korvin, Apple,a nd J. Winds is in the hottub. Johnathan is trying to enter. Falls will tell us what Pryor's up to, presumably on his next post. Nonna's in the kitchen with Gino, strumming on whatever passes for the ole banjo back in the day. Cato's running around all Norman Bates on us. Did I miss anyone?

:open_mouth: I am impressed! :laughing:

(And I was speaking for the first several charsheets I found - guess I didn't stumble across his!)

And here we run into that always fun and ever popular topic of discussion - Penetration.

Does HotSF make that a "magical" knife? Isn't that heat magical? (If not... where did it come from? If so, why does it stay after the spell ends???) The "momentary" spell doesn't really fit the RAW, since the magical heat sticks around after the spell ends, even if it's cooling "naturally" - but it's magical heat...

Only our SG has the final answer on this one. :unamused:

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No, it does not make it resistable. No more than a stick chared by a Pilium of Fire is resistable. If a tree is chopped down by an Incantation of Lightning or a PeHe spell, and you make arrows out of the wood, are they resistable?

Magic makes the knife hot, and it rapidly cools after the magic has had effect but it is still hot for a few rounds. The magic has had its effect and is no longer present. The lingering heat is not magical.

For example, I can use CrIg to start a fire, and though my initial blast can be resisted, the resulting fire remaining is not resistable.

Marko, you know that there are endless players on these boards who would disagree with you - why do you present your opinion as if it's gospel?

There is a gulf of distance between your examples and this one - they are not relevant at all.

A better analogy is a stream of water, CreoAquam, another form that "flows" and affects stuff. When the duration ends, does the existing water continue washing down? Or, does that water then disappear, because its duration is up? I hope you agree it's the latter - Creo not only is the source of the water, it's the magic that supports its very continued existence after it has been created.

The obvious counter-paradigm here is that the heat (or water) is magically created - so when the spell ends, the heat is then gone, unless something else is burning to create mundane heat.

That's what is happening in your last example - you have started a fire that then continues mundanely on mundane fuel, no longer needing the magic to create heat. What is the source of mundane heat in the knife? (Answer... the only source of heat is magical heat... which is not mundane!)

(Now, it's possible there is mud left after the CrAq spell - that would be consistent with your position. But for me, I don't know how you have mud if the water is all gone, and I don't know how you have any Creo'd water left lying around after the duration ends, mundane or not. ysmv.)

This spell is a legacy from earlier editions, and, unfortunately, the description does not perfectly fit 5th ed as imported from those editions.

I repeat - our SG is the only one who can rule on this, whether the spell description as written or the 5th ed rules should take precedence (or perhaps both - the spell lasts slightly longer than "momentary", for several momentaries). Personally, I neither know nor care how he will rule, I trust it will be consistent and appropriate and fair and wise - but your opinion is certainly not convincing because you pretend you have The Truth, (nor moreso because of the "support" you choose to present.)

The source of heat in the knife is the hot metal. Magic imparts the heat, the magi goes away but the hot metal continues to store mundane heat. And there are not endless players who would disagree with me, only a very few, and they are simply wrong. The spell is not legacy, it fits perfectly fine. I speak in matter-of-fact terms not in an effort to belittle dissenting views, but because I am simply that positive that this is the only correct interpretation. However, I do dare say that I feel your argument is pointlessly pendantic. Please take no offense to that. I can imagine you cast similar derisions upon my argument. Both points of view deserve to be heard. I have been wrong before :wink:

And the SG is not god. I do not ascribe to your "Cult of the DM" concept. Falls is not like that at all. Common Sense and Logic take precedent. And Ars Magica is a troupe style game. Players always have input into the game. The SG is merely first amongst equals. He has the final say only because of our consent. A good SG listens to what all the other players have to say, and sometimes may compromise in order to form harmony in his troupe.

I will agree with Marko on this in that the spell is D: Moment. The knife is heated, the spell ends, then it is applied. If I would have to concentrate on the spell to keep the heat then penetration becomes an issue in this case.

Are you serious?! :laughing:

You don't see that as circular logic? Ignem is the only heat that is there - and the only form of Ignem in this case is magical.

You add heat via CreoIgnem - there is no heat without the magic.

You don't Creo Aquam a spring, and then claim that the wetness in the spring self-perpetuates. You can't Creo Aurum a breeze, and then claim that the existing breeze keeps blowing "because there's wind"! (Well, no - it's clear that you do...)

As for the DM thing, if this were table top we could all take 60 seconds out of the game and discuss it - but in PbP, that's a day I'd rather not waste. Your exaggerated interpretations of my position are as fantastic and weak as your own logic.

Jeb - It says "Momentary" - but the problem would be that if the spell is truly "momentary", then the Ignem is gone when the magic is over. The words that describe the spell were written for guidelines from an earlier edition, and are not consistent with 5th ed.

Look at every other CrIg flame/heat spell with a momentary duration. There is no "residual heat" in any of them.

Now, it's possible that that one Guideline, "heating" things, works differently than all the rest - quite possible. And I can accept that without a problem.

As I said, I don't care - except that Marko acts as if he has the only possible correct answer possible in this. That's just bullshit.

:laughing:
It is so esy to get you riled up. Just relax bro. I seriously do think that this is the only possible correct answer, and I am sorry that upsets you. I also think that "4" is the only possible result of the equation "2 + 2". However, I did make allowance for the idea I could be wrong. I do make bonehead errors of ommission sometimes. Please don't get upset. Perhaps I lack the college education that most of you have, and I lack the skills of proper rhetoric and debate. I just want to share my point of view, and my wording is tainted by the fact that I am that convinced of it.

If I apply a blow-toarch to a piece of metal and get it red hot, does it suddenly cool when the external heat source is removed? No. The metal has since become charged with its own heat.

That logic does not work with magic as described in ArM5. If I used PoF to heat the knife the yes, it applies.

But the spell as written would provide the effects I have stated. Falls is free to override it.

I would say it does work logically. If I use CrIg to heat the knife, either via direct flame or irradiation, The Heating is accomplished by magic, but the after effects (lingering mundane heat, burns, etcetras) are not magical. The metal was brought to red hot, a physical change in the object caused by outside force. Once the magic causing the change is gone, the after effects still linger.

Marko, your grasp of the mechanics of this topic - or, rather, the complete lack of it - is truly staggering.

I'll try one more time (but I'm sure I'll regret it.)

Here is the counter-position.

In this discussion, Heat is a thing. It is a Form. It is Ignem. It is one of the 4 basic elements.

Terram is another element. Terram is not Ignem, and Ignem is not Terram.

Right? (Understand that, because it's important.)

In any given object, a Form either exists, or it doesn't. In a knife, the dominant (perhaps the sole) Form is Terram. There is no Ignem there naturally (or very little). One could put a knife in fire, and the fire would imbue some natural Ignem into the knife for a while. The "knife" is not hot - there is heat in the knife, in the form of Ignem. The knife is still just the knife, the heat is separate but in the same place, so one experiences both at once. If you plunged the knife into water, the Ignem would move from the knife to the water! Did the knife change? Nope. The Ignem simply left it. And again, that water does not "become" Ignem - Ignem is simply added to it. No magic involved.

It's not that the knife ~is~ hot - it can't be, Terram is not Ignem, we've agreed on that. It's that there ~is~ heat, Ignem, in the knife - very different.

Good so far?

But here, we use Magic to put some of that Form into the knife. That is not a natural occurrence of the Form, it's a magical variety. The magical "heat" is what is hot - the knife is not "hot". The fact that the Ignem and the Terram are both in the same location allow us to say "the knife is hot" - but the knife and the heat are two separate things, just as in the above example. But, here, the heat, the Ignem, is "magical".

When the magic stops - so does the heat. Because the magic was the only thing that had created the Ignem. And the "knife" never becomes hot without the presence of that magical Ignem. Terram has no "heat" to it, and it does not burn - so no mundane heat was ever created to last after the magic ended.

That is the counter position.

Adding magical Ignem to Terram is not the same as cutting down a tree with lightning, it's not the same as cutting down a tree with Perdo. If the Ignem destroys something (burns flesh or consumes wood), that is not the same as the Ignem, magical or mundane.

"Heat" is not the "after effect" of Ignem - they are one and the same. Magical Ignem does not "create" mundane Heat in the knife - it is the heat in the knife, the only heat. Magical Heat.

Your blowtorch model, your mundane heating, is NOT the same. Why? Because that puts mundane Ignem into the object, and when the source is removed, the Ignem remains independent of the original source. But "the spell" is not a source - it is what drives the existence of the heat. All the heat. The purely magical heat. The heat that is in the knife. The otherwise mundanely cold knife.

If you Rego a stone to fly off into the air, and the Rego stops - what happens to the stone. Are you aware that it does not keep flying? That it stops and drops straight down at whatever point it is? There is no "momentum", because it's magic that is driving it, not a natural force.

Something similar happens here. The magic doesn't "heat" the knife, it creates Ignem within the knife. When the magic is gone, so is that Ignem. And without that Ignem, there is no heat. Because the only heat that was added was magical, not natural.

Go back and (re?) read that analogy I made about Creo Aquam, water, springs, and mud, and what happens when the CrAq spell duration ceases. That's the model I'm applying here.

That is the counter model to your position. Which you have utterly failed to grasp so far.

And that is 95% of what I'm saying.