Parma magica as a spell?

While I don't disagree, I see Great (Characteristic) the same as Self-Confident and Puissant MT. With years of practice you can improve. I'm waiting for Apprentices to explain how this works.

I think casting tablets are a problem regardless of characteristic-boosting spells. As a McGuffin, having the great ritual on-hand to ward off the dangerous dragon (or whatever) is great. As a game-feature, having just about any spell accessible on-demand is terrible. I find that, realistically, casting tablets tend towards the latter. Why bother inventing lungs of the fish, when a few pawns or a visit to Durenmar will land you - not a lab text, but a casting tablet? Surely, you'll have better ways to spend your Season (like improving your Arts), then to learn a spell you could probably cast from the tablet if needed.

Casting tablets lead to the de-valuing of key spells, most especially the Aegis, and of learning spells in general, emphasizing instead general competence in the Arts, correspondence with fellow magi (to gain all those scrolls), and leading to much more selective spell-learning and invention. Not necessarily a bad trade-off for all, but I don't like it.

At least, that's how I see it.

As for characteristic boosting - I wouldn't want to rule it out entirely, but I admit it can feel cheap. I think the best compromise is to demand initiation, with inventing and casting the spell as part of the process (much like other Mysteries). You gain Improved Characteristics or Great Characteristics, through initiation.

YMMV,

Yair

I agree with this. Casting tables are one more shortcut that makes Magi more powerful than they need to be, mostly by freeing up seasons that they would otherwise spend learning basic spells to use around the covenant. The game is better off without this.

As long as it stays mysterious, rare, and hidden this works. The biggest problem with the existing rules on characteristic boosting is that there's nothing to prevent it from becoming routine. Aside from that, LuciusT is also right that it doesn't make sense to allow boosting characteristics when other changes to the human body violate essential nature.

Casting from text ruined a lot for us back in 4th ed! It was fairly easy to make lots of copies of nice spells - like Wings of Soaring Wind. And who cared if you could hardly cast it, you just made up for the low casting total with more fatigue. BTW it was a D:Sun flight spell we had, had it been Conc the problem would not have existed. If it went completely wrong, you just went out cold. A grog woke you up and you rested for a few hours. And if you risked Twillight? What the hey, evebody and their uncle studied Enigmatic Widsom for this very purpose, because it was not a restricted ability back then.
And it was done with lots of spells, so why bother learning them from text (which was how it was done in 4th ed) or inventing them? Granted it may have more been a problem with the players' attitudes than the system. But the fact was the system allowed it to be done, and there for certain players did it. Had it not been possible nobody would have done it.
Some of us tried to enforce how fatigueing and stressing it was to fly while very tired.

Oh, and for Attribute Boosting, I don't see it as much of a problem of Casting Tablets aren't arund. It is hard work inventing these high rituals and they cost a lot of vis. Of course I have only seen magi do this when it is outside their specialities. I have yet to see how a specialist abuses this.
BTW I currently and among others play a Mercurian magus who suddenly finds his Creo Corpus as his best arts, maybe he should try this out???

I think the problem here isn't the existance of casting tablets but the way casting tablets are handled in a saga. As you say, the idea works great as a McGuffin... so why not make that trip to Durenmar or that negotiation with another magus into an adventure. Make the players work for every spell they want to get a casting tablet for.

That said, looking over the casting tablet rules again, I note that they differ from the old casting from text rules in that the old rules made casting from text take longer (1 round per magitude), giving an advantage to formulaic and sponenous spells in a "I need to cast this right now" situation. I prefer that (so much so that I overlooked the fact that it wasn't included in the current rules).

I'd say something about Casting Tablets: I think that work very well like Relics for Integration on those Traditions that can Master Spells for time ago or the present and that they use symbols and writting.

Appearantly not. Guidelines aside, I'm fairly certain that was the party line until the 5[sup]th[/sup] edition.

This is consistent with my experiences.

I see it along the lines suggested in the True Lineages flavor - a cult-mystery, pulling you towards Magical perfection in attunement with the Mythic past or some mythology - much along the lines of Bjornaer Inner Heartbeast or faerie Becoming or so on. It is changing your true nature, just like theurgical apotheosis changes your true nature.

Definitely. Invent a Circle target version that increases Stamina to +5, and invite every magus in the covenant (gild? tribunal? Order?) to join you - for a price... If your Creo Mentem is high enough, you can ask some magi for aid in the lab towards researching a similar spell to increase Intelligence to +5, and then offer that en masse...

Because I find that unrealistic. Making casting tablets is easy, and they're clearly in demand. So it makes no sense that they would always be so darn hard to access. Why shouldn't any covenant have a few Aegis spells, at various levels, copied from Durenmar ages ago? Why shouldn't there be copies on hand for the various utility spells, like Scales of Magical Weight? Or the standard combat spells? This doesn't fly. I can wrap my head around some rare spells not having casting tablets floating around, or a few cases of a surprising-lack of casting tablets, but generally speaking casting tablets shouldn't be that hard to obtain. IMO.

That would certainly be an improvement. I'd simply take the standard "ritual" duration for casting from text, even if the spell is not a ritual.

Non-Hermetic scrolls work very well as relics, sure. These are not quite "casting tablets", however.

Because wizards are jealous and secretive. Because magic is a mystery and the people who learn it's secrets don't share them haphazdly. We're talking about an age when books are chained to shelves and even reading the Bible is considered something that should only be done by those wise and learned enough. Knowledge is a wealth to be guarded, horded and protected against those unworthy or who, in ignorance or malice, might misuse it.

I think some people have a view of the Order that is fairly open, friendly and cooperative... and I find that unrealisitc. In my sagas, magi are much more distrustful of each other. None of this business of hiring someone to create a Longevity Ritual for me or cast a Charactertistic-boosting spell on me, because who knows what that magus might really do once my Parma is down. Oh sure, I might trust someone in my covenant to assist me... maybe... but otherwise, no. As for sharing my magical secrets with others... not going to happen lightly. Even House Bonisagus, obliged by the Code to share the fruits of their research, will only do so "at the right time and in the right way." Mine is a much more supicious and jealous Order.

I conquer.

I've always thought Parma Magica would work better as a Minor Mystery Virtue that grants the Arcane Ability: Parma Magica.

Effectively, the 15 year apprenticeship of a Gifted student is the mystery Ordeal (with whatever bonuses etc for time/service etc). The swearing of the Oath and passing the Gauntlet would be other requirements. The mystagogue would be the apprentice's parens or the presiding Quaesitor using the well established script of the Order. The (Cult) Lore would be either Order of Hermes Lore or perhaps even Magic Theory. Successful completion grants the Minor Mystery Virtue: aArma Magica with a corresponding score of 1 in the Ability Parma Magica. As a Mystery Virtue it could well have been integrated into Hermetic Theory over time making it easier to learn per the rules on Original Research or Integration. There would actually be a disincentive to integrating it too fully into standard Magic Theory however as this would mean any apprentice could learn it earlier than their Gauntlet which has consequences.

If you think about it, the secret of Parma Magica is essentially the most important exclusive Mystery to the Order of Hermes and yet it is treated differently mechanically (due to the fact it is a legacy item from earlier editions). The Order of Hermes is a wide mystery cult in many ways, one that protects access to the legacy of Bonisagus (and Trianoma).

Making the Parma Magica a Mystery Virtue however does mean a clever apprentice or a Gifted hedge wizard could try and self-initiate Parma Magica but this would be a very interesting story - particularly for a non-Hermetic based saga where all the PCs are non Hermetic Mythic Companions or Gifted companions - I think Matt Ryan has run such a Saga.

Just some thoughts.

Lachie

I'd like to see something that makes Parma make more sense as exclusive to the Order, secret, and mysterious. Making it a Mystery would do that, so in this sense I like your idea a lot. Right now Parma is so easy to learn that it takes willful suspension of disbelief to imagine that the Order could have kept it private for almost 500 years.

At first I nodded when I read that line, but when I thought about it for a minute I realized I disagree. The Order isn't actually very much like a mystery cult. As presented in published materials, it lacks a common ideology or philosophy, or any real mysteries beyond the purely practical and professional secrets of working hermetic magic. Magic Theory certainly doesn't seem to do much to explain man's place in the universe or relation to God or the entities of the mystical realms. It does even less to resolve moral or ethical questions. The closest published works have come to ascribing authentically occult secrets to the Order was 4ed Mysteries, which has been largely ignored in AM5.

The Order may approximate medieval craft masons organizations, but it's nothing like early modern freemasonry. I see the Order as much more of a guild organization, with professional secrets and practical rules for organizing the members and resolving disputes. Certainly it contains mystery cults, with varying and conflicting mysteries, which is also an indication that the Order as a whole isn't a mystery cult.

So in that sense treating the Order as a Mystery Cult with its own Lore for initiations would be a rewrite of the organization and one that I think would discourage diversity with the Order. There are also mechanical implications if Hermes Lore or Magic Theory can be used for initiations, as it opens up the whole range of mystery virtues as potentially learnable across the order. This increases the power of Magi (bad from my perspective, others will differ) and also reduces the mysteriousness and uniqueness of mysteries and mystery cults within the Order (also bad from my perspective).

Like that, then ANY permanent Creo can be argued as violating essential nature. Actually, any non-Intellego spell can be argued to violate essential nature with that argument, even if some gets farfetched.

And dont disallow those, make them strictly limited in how they can be cast and raise their levels a bit. Like say, start at the same level as now but add 2 magnitudes instead of 1 to each better?
Have them require 5 times as much Vis?
Only castable at certain dates, times, weather and locations(all together)?
Etc. etc..

It might be that the spells are in conflict with the definition of Creo. Attribute boosters neither create an object ex nihilo nor restore something originally present in the target (and hence presumably part of essential nature). Upon reflection, they seem more like Muto spells to me. Maybe the solution is to reclassify them as Mu with Cr requisites.

I like the concept of Parama Magica like an Arcane Abilitie taht must be saved from enemies, firstly because grants stories and another motive: that makes Great to Bonisagus, one of the Greatests Wizards on Mythic History. If we made of that one Mystery, that would bring down him from many points of view.
Make some extent of Magic Resistance from Parma Magica aspects to one Spell or Enchantment? There is one gravelly road to any Magi.

Then healing becomes Mu(Cr) as well... And something from nothing can be made permanent, while improving something existing can not?

Which is why i prefer just upping the levels. Or maybe adding Muto as a requisite as well. Makes it much harder without messing things up too much.

Read again: "restore something"

And the difference between restore and improve in this case is...? Remember i´m not talking about RAW here, but RAW modified by previous suggestion.
If essential nature blocks any kind of improvement based on Cr then arguing that this isnt the case with healing becomes, odd.

Natural healing will improve something over time to the extent naturally possible. Characteristics can be improved over time to the extent naturally possible(even if RAW holds no rules for it), which is the +5 limit.
Natural healing can not heal anything however, while in theory anyone can improve any characteristic to that limit.
So if anything, healing can be argued as more Mu than characteristics boosting.

A nice thing we have found to limit the power of casting tablets is making them all penetration 0. High botch dice also help in making them not that common. Make them also ritualistic in their casting time. Easy enough (you have to read the damn thing)

We use casting tablets all the time, and we have not found them to be as problematic as people are pointing out. We tend to have around 400 levels of casting tablets around. They are grreat for one-off spells, and stuff you have there to boost your covenant (like a spell to bring water to the covenant, or illuminate the rooms) but they are not that common in field usage.

Cheers,
Xavi

Ars Magica isn't always consistent or clear on what "essential nature" means in the game context, but it is pretty clear that magic can't heal inborn flaws to a person's body. This implies that each individual has a unique essential nature, including such definitons as "blind man", "deaf man", "fairly smart woman", "dumb as a rock woman". Altering these definitions would work against essential nature and should only last as long as the magic does. It sounds like Muto to me, but arguing for Creo as augmentation sounds reasonable too, just not "instant" (permanent) Creo.

You could posit an alternative, where the essential nature of man is the perfect man, which would allow augmentation up to +5 as you suggest, but that would also suggest that virtues could be granted and flaws removed by instant Creo, which is ruled out by the RAW.

Healing is different because it only restores an individual up to their undamaged condition. It wouldn't make you stronger or faster than your unhealthy state. So there's no contradiction that I can see there.

On what basis do we claim that characteristics can be improved?

Yes, you can make the arguement that in real life you can exercise, lift weights, get an education, go to charm school, etc. and you can say that by doing so you improve your characterisitics... but is that what you are doing? You can just as easily say that exercise increases you Athletics, education increases your Artes Liberales, charm school increases you Charm.

Yes, you can argue that in real life that isn't how it works... but it's an absurd statement. In real life, we don't have Characteristics and Abilities. You honestly can't say that a real life human being has a Str +2 and Athletics 5... you can just say that he is plays pro football. All you can say in this case is this is how the game models things. Since there are no rules for improving Characterisitics apart from magic, I can make the arguement that, in the game, physical and mental improvements are achieved by increasing Abilities.