Penetration and Vi spells

I have several questions about penetration, MuVi spells that could be designed to affect it, and a general MuVi question.

A spell with a duration greater than instant is cast and penetrates its target.
While the spell is active, the target’s magic resistance increases to where the spell would no longer penetrate.

I imagine the spell is maintained—like in lowering parma to accept a spell, when the parma resumes, the spell is maintained.

From this it seems system-wise, the initial penetration is important for duration spells.

Could an instant MuVi spell affect the initial penetration of a spell that has a duration of longer than instant?

This MuVi spell wouldn’t affect the penetration of say, a ward a day after it was cast, but would affect the initial penetration of a spell that turned someone into a frog.

Some Vi spells are form specific, and some are not. Shroud Magic and The Sorcerer’s Fork are not form specific, while Wizard’s Reach, Wizard’s Boost, and Unraveling the Fabric of are form specific (among others on both sides).

The designation for what spells are limited to being form specific and what spells are not seems arbitrary and is not defined in the MuVi guidelines. Does the game anywhere offer more specific guidelines on how spells should be form specific or not?

Don't have the time to dive into the book right now (sorry), but Parma does not work like "other" Hermetic magics. Therefore, I'd be hesitant to treat it as such, and let simple MuVi effects change it easily. (Same with AotH.) So if you're talking generic "Penetration", that's one thing, but vs Parma/Aegis, that's another.

Wards do operate on basic Hermetic principles, so in theory one could effect those the way you are describing.

However, the "extra effort" against a continuing effect is a classic bit, and as SG I'd let an appropriate MuVi spell modify the effect, possibly, and certainly an existing ward against magic other than Parma.

Parma is a special case, and could easily race out of balance if general spells were allowed to augment its effectiveness. Ymmv.

  1. You can't really do this, as there's a specific paragraph that covers it. "It is not possible, for reasons thast Hermetic Theorists do not well understand, to use Muto Vim to affect another spell after it has been cast"

  2. Technically just with the given guidelines, yes.. you shouldn't need to design wizards reach and such with a specific form.. not a clue why they are really ^^

Also a little unsure why wizards reach is default voice.. as defaulting to touch would be more normal, if you were affecting your own spells

  1. Once through the MR the spell no longer needs to worry about it... Only way to get rid of it later is to have it dispelled...

  2. MuVi usually doesn't affect penetration at all, but in the case of the few that do (Sorcerer's fork i.e.), I'd say yes.

3)For techniques this is well defined - having a spell twice as efficient if it only affects a spesific form. This probably applies to all types of Vim magics, so a fork that only affects a single form would work upto its own level?

For game balance? Or because that's how the Gen'l guidelines read? ("Tech or Form"...)

Because some magi have non-momentary spells with ranges greater than "Touch"? Just a guess...

Sorry--these are really fine questions, and difficult.

Cuchuelain: I'm not looking to alter parma. I'm looking to alter the penetration of a spell, which would probably be to "significantly change" a spell. Also, I can't find a place in the general guidelines that discuss the matter at all, except in "alter a spell in a specific way." but this seems to be arbitrarily applied.

Fluffy: the spells would be altered at the time of casting, either on one's own spell as a simultaneously cast spell, or in coooperation with another magus. The voice range allows cooperative spellcasting.

Ulf: MuVi could affect penetration--it's a theoretical spell. But mor eimportantly... where did you find this gem??
"For techniques this is well defined - having a spell twice as efficient if it only affects a spesific form. This probably applies to all types of Vim magics, so a fork that only affects a single form would work upto its own level?"

Ah, my bad. So, if your mage is hit with a continuing spell with penetration, you want to reduce that penetration. (Or possibly fast-cast or set up a ward of a similar defense before he's actually hit by it.) Or the reverse, to increase Pen if one of your spells fails. Got it.

For the second, I have yet to see where one can design penetration into a formulaic spell. So, if it can't be designed that way initially, I'd think you can't Muto it there later. That is one of the advantages of items, that you can do so with them.

The MuVi Guidelines talk about affecting others' spells, and how the MuVi spell penetration must contest the targeted spell's. But nothing specific- I think that "Muto", in general, is too wide open to cover all bases.

(There is a phrase in there about Muto'ing spontaneous magic that could be quite humorous if used offensively, not cooperatively!)

FluffyS- found the quote to answer one of your questions, in the Guidelines-

"Touch range is sufficient to affect your own spells, but Voice range, at least, is required to affect another magus's casting. You cannot touch the spell itself."

Interesting. That little phrase has repurcusions on several issues.

Yeah, I know that bit.. what I mean is.. by default, surely it should be touch.. cause, that's generally what you're going to be using it for.. -your- spells.. .. cooperative casting is something above and beyond normal stuff I'd have said :slight_smile:

The question wasn't what it did, it was -why- it was the default for the set spell ^^ Sorry tho, cause I'm not great at getting stuff across, and usually cause misunderstandings .. stupid incomprehensible flaw.. ^^

Also.. .. I just had the quite scary thought.. of using MuVi to alter a mages cast Pillum down from Voice, to Personal.. .. cackle Just a shame you have to penetrate their resistance really.. makes it unlikely, unless you're a total Vim master

Hey, now that is comedy! Oh, man! :open_mouth: :laughing: :laughing:

To boost the penetration of a spell, couldn't Wizards Boost be used? It will increase the effect of the target spell by upto 5 levels (capped by Wizard Boost level). These 5 levels could go into Penetration instead of altering the dur/tar/ran couldn't they?

Not RAW, but as a SG I'd buy it.

As with any WB, you'd have to define which version of the spell it is when learned.

Damn - must have been more overworked than I thought... It should have been "... for Perdo this is well defined...", and I should probably have included the actual description for it as well...

From the guidelines:
"Gen:Dispel effects of a specific type with a level less than the level + 4 magnitudes of the Vim spell + a stress die (no botch). A specific type could be Hermetic Terram magic"
"Gen: Dispel any magical effect with a casting total less than half the (level + 4 magnitudes) of the Vim spell + a stress die (no botch)."

Now, back to serfing...

Ulf: That would make sense and it's a nice idea for a house rule. It's unfortunate that the examples in MuVi don't follow along. Nice find there otherwise. Perhaps the MuVi spells aren't thoroughly checked--Wizard's Boost is off by a magnitude for example. This is definitely a dusty corner of the rules.

Brutus: Wizard's Boost is such a little conundrum. See, as a MuVi, it is supposed to affect a spell in a particular way. It is specified to increase the power of the spell--it doesn't speficy range, duration, or anything else. I think this is creative shorthand for damage in damaging spells, force in telekinetic spells, depth of pits (or perhaps spiky bits at the bottom) and the like. If it meant something like range then it would be duplicating another spell, which according to the guidelines in MuVi it shouldn't be doing.

FluffySquirrel: it's a great idea and one my MuVi specialist has considered, but it may not be possible and if it was, as you suggest, it’s rather hard to do.

  • First, since the opposing Magus is unlikely to be cooperating, the MuVi spell must be fast cast. The MuVi is possibly/probably form specific as well(that’s a lot of inventing or guesswork).
  • Second, since it's reducing range by 2 magnitudes, it’s a total change.
    A total change with voice range requires the base MuVi spell to double the level of the affected spell, which would be at least a level 40 spell in the case of affecting a Pilum.
  • The MuVi spell must exceed the penetration of the targeted spell (but not penetrate the wizard who cast the spell targeted). In this case, the Pilum is cast at level 20, while the MuVi is fast-cast at level 40 (with all the fun penalties that means).
    Exceeding penetration when down 30 points of casting total from the getgo is pretty hard. This requires a serious power difference between the wizards, making the spell rather redundant in the end, if intensly cool
  • Moreover, there’s a bit in the guidelines that might make the whole thing moot. “The Vim spell affects the structure of the spell, not the things that the spell targets.” But the MuVi spell is actually changing the range—so it could be a tossup as to if the targeted spell fails or if it affects the caster of the targeted spell.
  • Last, it’s no good in the unlikely event of a spontaneously cast spell.

But yeah, if all of that fell into place, it would kick total ass.

MuVi is rather sucky in this way. It’s kinda neat, kinda interesting, but sadly, it’s very, very restricted and sometimes the guidelines are not clear.

You are confusing cause and effect. Almost any time you change the range, of course the final target will change as well - that doesn't "affect" the target with regard to the MuVi spell, only with regard to the final outcome of the changed, targeted spell.

A Mage casts Ball of Abysmal Fire at Voice range, and has a distant target in mind. That range gets dropped to Touch - new result,certainly, but the targets themselves weren't acted upon by the MuVi spell at all.

Acutally, depending how you view the rules, it's just the opposite.

I'm guessing you're refering to the 2nd paragraph of the MuVi Guidelines..."These meta-magical spells have certain special restrictions, which apply to all Muto Vim spells invented according to Hermetic theory. First of all, they cannot be cast on spontanteous spells. Such magic is being manipulated at whim - any attempt to alter it further would make the caster lose control. (This is necessary for game balance.)"To me, that says that you cannot cast it on a cooperating wizard with any positive results- for game balance. However, it also clearly states what happens if you did attempt to alter it further. To me, that means that the phrase "they cannot be cast..." is not to be read as an absolute prohibition, but a practical one. That is, there's nothing to stop you, except the disastrous potential results.

I know some magi who might risk it at extreme voice range, if only just to see the fireworks.

I actually agree with you on that bit, but some people would not (thus my caveat). :slight_smile:

Okay, this is something that confuses me, and if anyone could direct me to relevant passages in the books I would appreciate it.

Why does a MuVi spell have to exceed the penetration of the targeted spell? Surely it if it must penetrate at all it must be the Magic Resistance of the other caster. I don't see why there should be any interaction between the penetration of two spells.

I've seen this sort of logic in discussions before, but don't know from where it stems. But I've also missed blatantly obvious rules in the book as well. Is it in the Vim guidelines or something?

It's in the MuVi guidelines =) some thirteen sentences in, the sentence starting with "In addition." Spells are outside the caster it seems. Also, this rule enables casters to work coperatively (as in Wizard's Communion) with an active parma while still providing an obstacle to using MuVi on an opponent.

To affect you, the spell he is casting must leave the protection of his Parma, which would be where yours can start doing its job. The magus isn't the target, his spell is. For Personal-range spells, you may have a point.