Piercing illusions & magic resistance???

Does spells such as Discern the Image of Truth & Falsehoods need to penetrate magic resistence?

Ie conrad ex flambeau is using invisibility and xavier ex tytalus uses the above to try and see conrad. Does xavier's InIm spell need to penetrate conrad's parma?


Given that forceless Intellego magic to find a apprentice is accepted despite the very strict rules on scrying otherwise I would say you need to penetrate the parma magica to see the magus.
Anyway both have to extrem carful about the scrying rules of the tribunal! Because even to be invisible already count as scrying from what ArM5 page 14 say.

In our saga we use the example of ArM5 p.33f Darius of Flambeau under his PeIm 20 Veil of Invisibility, his Parma 5 and his Imaginem Form at 5.

A maga having cast ArM5 p.144 Discern the Images of Truth and Falsehood and looking in his direction
(1) needs at least an InIm 25 Discern the Images of Truth and Falsehood cast to look through the level 20 spell of Darius at all, and thus see the tip of his spear (which is not part of his talisman);
(2) needs to penetrate his MR against Imaginem 30 with that spell to also see Darius and his talisman staff.

Yes, this constitutes a maga scrying on a hoplite, so she better has a good excuse.


As Adauli mentioned, it's noted that using Veil of Invisibility to observe another magi can itself count as scrying, so from a Tribunal case perspective, it's pretty easy to argue that in fact, Darius is the one guilty of scrying, and has at the very least forfeited protection here.

Spells do need to generally penetrate, but invisibility is a fairly common case, and I like to point out this (possibly underlooked) gem of a spell:

Eyes of the Bat (ArM p.127) effectively counters invisibility without needing to penetrate magic resistance, as it grants the caster them supernaturally fine hearing, to the point where they can effectively detect the location of any solid object around them without using sight. It should not need to penetrate Darius' Veil of Invisibility - though it might not be possible to distinguish the invisible person as Darius of Flambeau using it.

As a SG, I would probably even allow this spell to enable detection against PeIm spells designed to target sound coming from a single individual, as there is a 'hole' in the sound that should be perceptible - although it would be susceptible to concealment or misdirection techniques using Cr, Re, or MuIm, or PeIm spells that silenced an entire area.

So Eyes of the Bat must penetrate MR of Darius, or will detect only the point of his spear.


Admittedly, I might be getting a little close to an Intellego-specific version of the pink dot here.

This is an odd case, possibly unique to Intellego magic, where the knowledge that perception does not work against a specific point or area is, in and of itself, useful. My argument is that for this specific spell and use case, the inability to penetrate the Parma Magica (or other forms of magical concealment) is largely irrelevant to providing useful information to the magus.

Example Case: Magnus the Magus casts Eyes of the Bat, but fails to penetrate the Parma of Darius of Flambeau. However, his enhanced senses do note that there's an area (specifically, the Area protected by Darius's Parma) where Magnus's now-improved senses don't seem to function. This lets him know that something might be hiding in the 'blank spot' of his perception. If Darius were, on the other hand, simply using a Mu(Im) spell that concealed his appearance as he trailed Magnus the Magus Eyes of the Bat would provide no helpful information here.

The core of the argument here is that the Parma Magica creates a barrier, which the spell cannot penetrate, which creates a 'hole' in otherwise comprehensive perception. PeIm is going to be 'naturally vulnerable' to sensory effects that effectively use negative space in this manner- as I mentioned before, it would be largely useless against a MuIm affect or similar.

For example, I cast a custom InIm spell, Color-Shifting Vision that lets me see everything in the area, but slowly cycles my vision through a rainbow color-tint over the duration of the spell. I forcelessly cast this, and anything it doesn't penetrate will not change colors in my eyes - thus standing out, and letting me easily identify everything around me with magic resistance! Saints, Fairies, Magi, and Demons all wouldn't change color! (Well, limit of the Infernal is there for Demons, so we'll give them the option either way). (note that this particular spell wouldn't work against things I couldn't see in the first place, like incorporeal entities or invisible magi.)

I think so.

Much like the classic pink dot, this is the consequence of thinking about Parma in a very literal sense. It works better in my opinion to consider Parma as protection from magic, which thereby foils magical senses as appropriate, without sweating the mechanics of it.

Similarly, being over-literal about the Limit of the Infernal allows silly workarounds to demonic immunity to Intellego through such devices as area effect Muto that turns them all bright pink. Phoo on that, I say!

Eyes of the Bat is T: Hearing.

Especially there will typically be large areas where there are no boundaries within hearing range, and where you "hear" nothing. So there is no easy way to conclude 'blank spots', where Darius may be hiding.

Just detecting MR in an area by forcelessly casting a spell affecting that area with a dense multitude of 'pink dots', or a T: Vision spell just replicating what is seen by mundane sight, is very easy and well known in most sagas. But it cues the beings with MR (see ArM5 p.85 Awareness of Attack), and might give them time to react before you: a bad idea if Darius is among them. This has nothing to do with Eyes of the Bat, though, and nothing with the purpose of this thread either.