Pre-play Discussion

Meh...I'm for leaving RAW unless it will truly change the game in a bad way. Natural consequences for one's actions can often take care of these things. So let's say you put an army to sleep, you'll likely have to answer for that even if you covered your tracks. Certainly any magus that knew about it and disapproved (or simply wanted to cause problems) could charge such a magus with interfering with mundanes. If any mortals lived and realized who did it, they might attempt drastic action to take out a person who can so easily stop an army. A dagger in the night is not as easy to stop as one might think...mortals can be very clever and persistent (just ask Verditius himself!). So while you might develop a spell that can sleep an might decide not to use it.

I think Range would limit this, to some extent. I don't have my books, but to affect this many this quickly via multicast, it would have to be at least Voice range. So the spell level would be... (don't have my books), assuming base 3, voice is +4? and I guess you'd want Sun duration (since there's not much you can do to a sleeping army in two minutes)... Isn't this a high enough level spell that it would be really difficult to pull off more than two castings in a round? Granted, I don't have my books and I'm really not sure what the spell level would have to be, but my expectation is that the end effect you're describing is much harder than you're expecting it to be.

i don't really see anything wrong with that. An elegant solution to the Warping threshold problem (something about 5th ed I have never been happy with... Because taking a fireball to the face isn't bad enough, we gotta add insult to injury and push you a little closer to Twilight too).

Still don't see a problem. But then, I am a roleplayer, not a roll-player. Big numbers and dice rolls are all well and good, but the challenge of any good roleplaying system should come from the situations that you can't just throw magic/the Force/swords/spell reagents at.

@Arya: I see two ways of overcoming creation blocks. You could ask someone completely uninvolved about an idea and use it for a first draft. Or you open a random book on a random page 3 times (or roll dice to randomize) and read one sentence. Create your character from that sentence.

@ rules:
Maybe we should relax about trying to find house rules a little. We all know to build munchkins (and we are all responsible enough to avoid super-munchkinism that might ruin somebody else's enjoyment of the game)

Question: Is there 1 CrCo spell for wounds and diseases recovery boni (ArM5 core) or are there 2 - one for wounds and another one for diseases (A&A)?

Okay, here's what I'm probably going to do about Multi-Casting: You can cast as many extra copies of the spell as you have Multiple Casting abilities, not overall Spell Mastery.

And in the interest of fairness, I've gone through and done the same (or very similar) to the following spells: Apotropaic Mastery, Fast Casting, Imperturbable Casting, Lab Mastery, Obfuscated Casting, Penetration, Precise Casting, Rebuttal, and Unraveling. That is, these can all be taken multiple times, with the benefit based on how many times you take the ability in question.

Re: Might Strippers/Might Soak. Since we can't seem to find a consensus as to whether it's a problem or, if so, how to fix it, I'm going to leave it r.a.w. At least for now. If, down the road, I do see that it's unbalanced to the saga, then I'll revisit it.

On Anvils: I agree with the +4 metals. I'm not sure about the +2 Destroy, though – when I think anvil, I think of making or changing, rather than destroying. Barring any other ideas, though, I'll go with the +4 metals/+2 destroying stuff.

Re: fast-casting, just so I'm clear, does that mean you can only fast-cast a spell once per round, if you have choosen fast casting once? Fast-casting response is already goverend by quickness+finess+stress die. If you mean quick casting, which enables you to cast a spell at a higher intiative point, then that's alreayd part of the description of the mastery ability. If you apply this to fast-casting, ReHe an arrow away becomes much harder if there is more than one.

Also need some clarity on the spell learning, whether it is a lab activity or an XP spend, or player's choice.

The only thing that the Fast-Casting mastery does is (1) allows you to cast the formulaic spell under Fast Casting rules and (2) reduces the number of botch dice. Taking it once drops the number of additional botch dice to one, while taking it twice eliminates the additional botch dice for fast casting entirely. Without the Fast Casting mastery, you can only cast a Spontaneous spell. For example: if you have Repel the Wooden Shafts as a Formulaic spell, but don't have the Fast Casting Mastery, then you can only cast Repel the Wooden Shafts as a Spontaneous spell.

Oh, there's the rules...I kept missing the part about post-gauntlet lab activities (and I couldn't decide how to dock the points for doing so). Okay, now that I've found them and read them (have I mentioned that this is my first time? :smiley: ), I'm going to go ahead and say "player's choice" but be sure to specify that you're doing so if you're using the lab activity rules. (p. 32, third paragraph, starting with the numbered block in the middle (which seems like reasonable measures for doing the lab stuff). Lose 10 xp per season for each lab activity, up to 30 per year. So, if you're inventing a spell that would take you five seasons to invent, it might be better to just do the point-expenditure route.

Total Mastery score normally subtracts from all botch dice when casting the mastered spell, not mastery for particular abilities. Is this an exception for the case of fast casting? If I have a Mastery score of 3, with the fast casting, multicasting and quick casting, as an example, I still roll 1 botch die when I fast cast it? That seems, harsh, and is definitely needs to be something the HR topic as that is counter to RAW. I think taking multiple casting more times is appropriate. I don't think taking fast casting more than once, just to remove a botch die is a reasonable approach. it is 10 or more xp expendeture for thsose without Flawless Magic (5 or 7.5 for those with).

So players choose one or the other, and don't use some combination of both, or they use whichever is most expedient? Since we're opening this can of worms, what about lab texts for common spells, perhaps from the books you mentioned?

PB, if a suggestion would help, personally I decided that anything level 25 or less would be easy enough to find and trade for without issue, and anything more than that I required OoH Lore rolls for them to be able to acquire. With the obvious "duh" exceptions, like: a Flambeau can always find a lab text for BoaF, and a Mercere can always find lab texts for Aegis, etc. HTH.

I guess there's not really a difference between "Fast Casting" botch dice and "normal" botch dice, is there? (at least, under normal circumstances). So, in most cases, two levels of Fast Casting and three levels of other types of Spell Mastery will cancel out five botch dice (if you're doing something bizarre enough to warrant five spell-casting botch dice).

But, say you botch a fast-cast spell in a Faerie: 5 aura. You would have 5 Faerie botch dice and 2 Fast-Casting botch dice. If you have one level of Fast Casting and two other Spell Mastery abilities, you would then roll three Faerie dice and 1 normal die. Make sense?

The 30 points a year may be spent on Arts, Abilities,and Spells. Lab Activities may be used for Magic Items, Familiars, Talismans, and Longevity Rituals (not that I expect anyone to need a LR yet), at a cost of 10 xp per season (no more than three seasons per year). Just to keep things relatively simple.

As long as your total Spell Mastery score subtracts, in full, from your total number of botch dice (as per RAW), I don't mind which dice it subtracts from, since that would always be arbitrary anyway.

Rather than make a magic item with my lab time, I would have liked to invent the spell.

I understand not allowing lab texts for use. Why should the verditius be able to make magic item to cast level 20 spells with their lab activities and while I can't use that same season to invent a spell?

My character will need longevity. apprenticeship starting at age 11, 26 out of apprenticeship, 36 after 10 years. I am curious if I can arrange to purchase a longevity potion from an expert in exchange for a season of lab work (in addition to season to make potion)? My CrCo is not very good. (though I guess I can potentially do level 29-31 or +6 or +7 potion).

On the botch dice: If I have spell mastery 3 (quick cast, multicast and fast cast), I have -3 botch dice. So if I fast cast it in magic or no aura area: it is 1 base botch die + 2 more for fast casting is 3 botch dice and then -3 for having 3 levels of mastery for 0 Botch dice. That is RAW.

Are you saying that because there is only 1 level of fast casting the 3 dice are only reduced to 1 (1 standard removed and only 1 of the 2 additional)

I was thinking that I had seen that Faerie botches have a different flavor than normal botches, but danged if I can remember where (or find it again).

That's what I want. Botch dice are botch dice, the reason they are, is irrelevant. Mastery score subtracting from # of botch dice, again, irrelevant. I just want the ability score to cover the number of botch dice, not the type of abilities, selected. Peregrine's example doesn't really do that, or at least leaves the suggestion that one must take fast casting 2 times to be able to avoid rolling any botch dice when fast casting a spell, which is something I think is really beyond what we were suggesting with fixes to multiple casting of spells. As a Mastery skill, fast casting just allows you to fast cast the spell. The skills themselves don't or should not subtract from botch dice, but the overall ability score should do that.

For example, I have multiple casting and fast casting for PoF, with a total ability score of 2. I decide to multiple cast (meaning two spells) in a Fairie Aura. Since I only have multiple casting once, and I'm using that particular type of spell mastery, does it only subtract the one botch die? Seems like we're taking this thing a lot further than the context it was brought up in: to merely limit the number of multiple copies in cases of might stripping spells. Yeah, I think multi-casting is broken, should have to taken more than once to generate copies of spells. I do not think that spell mastery ability reducing botch dice is broken. In my above example, in a Fairie aura of 2, I should roll 0 botch dice, whether I'm fast casting or multiple casting (or both!), because my overall ability score reduces botch dice.

Every botch has to be evaluated on its own merits. A botch in a faerie aura should be different than say a botch in a magic aura vs a botch in dominion aura. This shouldn't change whether the extra botch dice from faerie or from fast casting or vis use.

You add up the total number of botch dice, subtract out any from cautious sorcerer/spell mastery and roll that many botch dice.

Then count number of 0's and do a botch based on aura, spell and number of 0's

I have no problem with a botch, regardless of how many of what kind of botch dice contribubted to there being a botch (3 fairie + 2 spell casting), being colored by the overall aura in which the botch occurs. It's a bit too deterministic to say some botch dice are mitigated by this, and some by that, so it's a magic botch this time.. Botches are the realm of the SG, and they can have positive and negative effects, often at the same time.

Same here-- I suspect it may be a throwback to older editions. Didn't 3rd ed faerie vis have extra botch dice that caused "lolwut" botches?

Never played 3rd edition...must have been 4th. Okay, since Other-Realm Botches don't seem to make a difference as opposed to Magic Botches, I'll file Fast-Casting with the other Mastery options that have no special benefit beyond the first, i.e. you can take it more than once, but it only goes toward reducing the number of botch dice. (although just having found some HP*63 fanart, a Faerie MuCo botch can be amusing).

That could be special faerie vis that has side effects if you use it (could be side effects, could be extra botch dice, could be something else). There is divine and infernal vis that have special effects when you use them.

That said, unless the rules explicit say there is something special about the botch dice, they only add to total number (Weird magic is specific example). So if you fast cast a spell in faerie 5 aura using 4 pawns of vis: you have 1+2+5+4 = 12 botch dice, not (1 normal, 5 faerie, 2 fast cast 4 vis), If you have spell mastery at 3 (fast cast, multi-cast, quick cast) and cautious sorcerer as well then that 12 botch dice becomes 6 botch dice.

If you get a botch, the botch should be determined by faerie aura, number of 0's (1 0 for bare botch vs say 4 0's) and the spell that was being attempted.

Wait wait-- it DOES matter. The Warping you get from different realms is supposed to play a role in what kind of flaws you pick up from Warping score, right? Not that I recall ever seeing a way to track Warping points from different sources, but IIRC a botch due to casting in a Faerie aura will give you Faerie warping, whereas most mystical botches give you Magic warping.

"'But we are all brothers against injustice, Herr Meissner, are we not?'"
"He was rescued by Miss Ambersleigh, who appeared at his elbow like an English djinni, which is to say, suddenly, but without any flash and smoke and other nonsense."
"'I find death to be an excellent prophylactic measure.'"

....Oh my.