Precious Vis

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

Salve sodalis,

We built a Spring Covenant using the rules in the Covenants supplement. And thanks to a great location, we had access to more Hooks than we could bank.

So naturally, one of the Boons we chose, was Hidden Resources (Minor Resources Boon, page 18: 250 Build Points that we turned into 50 pawns of various types of Vis per year). Now, after about six years in-game campaigning, we have a huge stockpile of Vis since we don't seem to do anything with it. Occasionally we heal one of our grogs or trade some raw Vis to borrow a tome from a friendly covenant, but that's about it.

Obviously we're doing something wrong. I know we could use Vis to make magic permanent, but we seem to never have a need for that. None of us is close to needing a Longevity Potion either.

So, Vis doesn't feel precious to us. What should we do to change that? What are we missing?

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Young magi tend not to use Vis.

Lab activities are not too useful for young magi.
Young magi, because magic theory and their arts are relatively weak, the lab outcomes are also quite weak. Even if a magi has a lab project in mind, they would generally spend a few season improving certain skills and arts before a lab activity.

There is also the opportunity cost. Early magi can greatly improve in power quickly.
Improving arts that are 0 to 5 in a season expand their spont options, their choice of formulaic spells to learn, and improves their art based resistance.

Increasing Skills such as Finesse, Parma Magica, Penetration, Philosophae, Artes Liberales, magic theory can be quite quick as often the skills are less than 3.

Maybe after about 20 or so seasons, the rapid improvement slows a bit and there may be seasons of only partial progression to the next level. At that point, lab activities start becoming more relevant.

The reason I mention opportunity cost, is magi in Ars Majica have a weird social dynamic. In most cases, the young brash upstart can often win, as the experienced person is fading. For an example, look at the slow decline of Federer and Nadal in tennis.

That does not happen in Ars Majica. A youngster mage is pathetic compared to any established magi. A quick power up is essential. Every season not spent improving parma, Arts, etc, is another season where one hopes the powerful do not look your way.

My current saga is in a similar spot. Later on, I imagine we will really start to use Vis.

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Other covenants/magi/hedge wizards/magical creatures that consider it precious :slight_smile:
What you effectively have is a wonderful Hook: lots of vis to unload. Someone wants it, they might have (or be induced to have) something you want, and a deal ... requires a Story!

Let me warn you, however, against the typical SG reaction to such a situation. "Too much vis? Let's take it away, forcefully". Even if you engineer a situation in which they have to spend it, always make sure that the PCs get something commensurate in return. Perhaps they can use it to boost their penetration against a dangerous foe (who has a commensurate treasure for them to gain). Perhaps they can help a magus or covenant who is deep, deep in debt (and becomes their eternal ally and supporter thereafter). Perhaps they can use it to win a certamen they'd otherwise lose (and gain what was at stake). Note that certamen can consume prodigious quantities of vis!

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Thank you for your quick response.

But then, would other covenants vie for our stockpile? I suppose older Magi would be in need for whatever source they can find. What would they offer for it, to make it look we're sitting on some true treasure?

And how much Vis would a typical 'older Magus' consume per year? What would they typically use it for? Even if us youngsters don't use it, knowing what our elders do with it, may restore our impression of their value.

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One significant expense is Longevity Rituals. A Longevity Ritual requires 1 pawn/5 years (plus any you might add to boost the lab total). So, a 150-year-old magus requires 30 pawns.

Another is big Hermetic Rituals. An older magus with a penchant for creating cathedrals via his Level 60 CrTe Ritual spends 12 pawns for every such casting. He can easily burn through a whole queen of vis (100 pawns) in a single year! Admittedly, that's a bit quirky - but older magi are quirky. And even a powerful Aegis (say, 10th magnitude) consumes 10 pawns/year.

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Oh, I didn't know that. We've actually never been to or even seen a Certamen contest.

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So 50 pawns a year is a lot of vis unless you have a lot of players. That makes your campaign a high vis campaign. Your vis supply will be useful down the road. A familiar bond is a pawn per 5 lab total - and that's before enchantments. Studying from vis costs a pawn per 5 in your art score - you rarely do that early on with books in the library but when you start to want to push beyond 20 it gets costly - doing it twice - thrice at 4-6 pawns per season to gain a +1 builds up quickly. Talismans eat up a large number too. They're rarely worth investing into until you are willing to spend 20-30 pawns on them.

At this point - Consider doing what many young covenants should be doing with the surplus : buying books and labtexts to study with, or even order equipment for your local Verditius. Don't borrow - start stashing.

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Depending on your story guide, and the nature of the saga, I'd be relatively quiet about having huge tracts of vis. You may become more popular than Eleanor of Aquitane.

Some magi may decide your right to extract the vis is questionable. If you are not strong, you may lose your vis source to some questionable agressive tactics by other magi.

Assuming you can hold the vis and trades are on offer. Trading vis for Summae, Formulaic spell lab notes, Tractatus, magic items, a commitment from a Creo Corpus expert to create a longevity potion in the future, a season of training. There are lots of things you can trade vis for.

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Including ... vis.
The Mercere exchange vis of one type for another, and loan it. But they charge horrid commissions. You could easily turn a tidy profit (and earn a good Reputation in the process) giving other covenants better conditions :slight_smile:

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You can use your vis to buy books and enchanted items for your covenant.

According to “Covenants,” a good summa costs pawns equal to its Quality. So you can drop 10-15 pawns on a single summa. If you bought one for every Art, that’s a good way to spend 200 pawns.

According to “Houses of Hermes: Mystery Cults,” non-Verditius magi typically charge twice the number of pawns required to create an enchanted item, while Verditius charge three times. With so much vis to spend, you can buy magical heating and lighting for your labs, trapped doors to secure your sanctum, magical armor for your grogs, and magical tools and labor saving devices that save your covenant money.

A covenant in Normandy requires as little as 1 pawn per wizard, while a covenant in the Greater Alps requires 10 pawns per wizard. If you’re somewhere in that range, the amount of vis your covenant has is not unusual for the Order. You just might want to start spending it!

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It is a well-known issue as everybody has a different understanding of what is vis-rich/poor and there is absolutely zero consensus about what is a "normal" amount.
The only common expenses across all covenants is the Aegis and the amount (based on covenants described in official sourcebooks) will range from 4 (the minimum) to 7 with the possibility for exceptional cases to have access to magnitude 10 or above Aegis (I believe Magvillus is mentioned to be able to use such ritual in crisis situation).
After that, it is all case by case. If you happen to have a few Verditius in your covenant, it seems there will never be enough virtus to satisfy their needs. But if you have more scholary-oriented mages, they might not see the need for virtus until their first longevity potion. And if they manage to get a good one, it could last them a very long time.

I am going to propose a different approach: with your ST and your troupe, agreed that it was an oversight to allow so much virtus initially and cut income and stock by half, or even by two-thirds. Get some extra books, some interesting magical items that set the mood and style of your covenant: instead of a wand of PoF with +25 Penetration, maybe an animated armor acting as a buttler (Automata mystery), a orchard with rejuvenating properties (granting +1 or +2 to living conditions).
Then later in your saga, when the need of virtus becomes more prevalent, slowly increase the income.

By setting early on a rich-vis environment, it skews the whole background: other elder covenants must have at least as much if not more, then what is the value of trading books in such rich-environment, why bother trading since a covenant has everything it needs or can summon it with vis ? if there is little reason for trade, then interaction won't happen (killing many adventures in the process) ? why magical items are not more frequent if there is so much vis, etc...

Alternatively, if the SG feels like it, it can use that as a cue for a major Saga plot: the increase of vis availability is the first omen of something big to come (rise of the Titan like in Dies Irae or increase of every Realm influences with gate opening spontaneously - including from Hell, leading to major issues everywhere - but by restoring the balance, the vis production will decrease).

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Part of the reason there is no consensus on what is Vis rich vs Vis poor is that it greatly depends on the age of the Covenant and Magi. What would be rich for a younger Covenant with younger (and fewer) Magi would be poor for an older Covenant with older Magi. The older a Covenant and the Magi who are part of it get, the more Vis they can spend.

While young, most of the "sinks" such as enchanting, powerful AotH, LR, and powerful rituals are not options due to lack of need and ability. As they get older those things will become a thing (or requirement with things like LR) that will suck up more and more Vis.

The Covenant in my current saga has a Vis income that is nearly double yours on average, with a max potential that is about x2.5 (several sources vary in amount). The Covenant stockpile is over 1.6k pawns. However between the 8 older Magi, 2 Redcaps, and several massive Vis sink projects going on we are only on the upper end of average (Magi have to save for years to a decade for expensive things). And that massive Covenant stockpile gets burned through any time we start a new major project (Hermetic Architecture is expensive). We also support many young Covenants (politics) with donations of Vis and books, which eats into it.

With a young Covenant that has an excess of Vis, your best bet is to do what others have suggested and nudge your players towards spending it to expand their library and hire older Magi to create enchanted items for them. Put in a bid to get early access to a folio.

They should take advantage of the excess while they have it because in several decades it will no longer be an excess.

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At minimum they should be plagued by venditors trying to sell them magic items.

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That's true... 50 pawns of vis per year sounds a lot to me for a covenant of 3-5 magi... But if the annual Corpus and Vim revenue is 0... And don't match the arts that interests your magi... It's less than it seems because you'll always be trading down.

A sound summae costs pawns = level, not quality.

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Not sure if you miss anything at all. For a manageable player group 50p/y is a lot. It would surprise me if it is not going to remain excessive for the duration of the saga.

A few points which I do not think have been mentioned yet.

  1. It depends a lot on the magi, not only their age, but also their interests. If you play a Verditius, you may want a lot. Most other monomaniac types need very little. In one saga I play a magus with painful magic, which makes him always wanting more vis for enchantments (plus vis for LR for himself and his wife). In another saga I play a rusticanus, who does not even care for a talisman. He only needed masses of vis when he started inventing stat boosting rituals, and that was 2-3 decades into the game. In other words. If what you have is barely enough for the verditius or other dedicated enchanter, it will be way over the top for anybody else.
  2. Depending on the story you want to tell, such vis sources should lead to envy and rivalry.
  3. Trade has been mentioned, both books and enchantments. I am not sure that a bustling market makes for a good story, but if there is one, vis is easily spent. There is the risk that the saga becomes an exercise in counting books, xp, and grog scribes, and describing ever increasing luxuries.
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... I should add, that there are a lot of interesting vis draining stories to tell. Rival covenants challenging the vis sources may not be the most plausible ones.

  1. There may be powerful magic monsters or faeries who demand a tribute.
  2. If you just make the stories bloody enough, you can spend some on healing.
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It does look horrid, but as I understand it, they will always trade any kind for any other kind. Covenant-to-Covenant trade is entirely voluntary. When I realised that, the rates seemed much more reasonable. (I'm still not convinced by the Technique = 2xForm rate, though.)

Our campaign has just got to peak Longevity Ritual, and as a result we are scrabbling desperately for Corpus, Creo and Vim Vis, while ignoring our other stocks (because we think trading 2-for-1 is a last resort, being mean). So what kinds of Vis you have may matter in a while: some really are needed more than others. (Our Bjornaer has kindly agreed to use some Animal Vis for his LR. Let's hope that works.)

Putting the two thoughts together, I think House Mercere are asked to trade away Corpus, Creo and Vim Vis much more often than they are given them in trade. So if they never refuse a trade, they must have some serious Vis sources of their own: maybe even a few private alchemists. Lots more plot hooks there!

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There is a difference between refusing a trade and being unable to fulfill one.

You have to remember that while the House might have great stocks, most of the actual Vis trading is carried out by individual Redcaps on spec and so you are limited to what they have on them. Sure if you have contacted them ahead of time they will generally manage to get what you want from their House but that requires time and notification.

If there is a local run on a type of Vis (say at a fair) then very quickly all local stocks of that Vis will be exhausted and the Redcaps will not be able to trade you that Vis no matter how much you beg or offer.

Even when dealing with a major hub (one that has access to the Mercere Portal network), you are still limited by the stocks the House has. While far less likely to run out of a given type, it is still possible. And even if they have it, you might be waiting for a while till they can transfer it from a remote location.

The biggest advantage of having Vis stored with House Mercere is not in exchanging types, but in commerce, payment, and transfer of large quantities. If you hire another Magus to do something or buy an enchanted item/book, you only have to direct the transfer of Vis from your account to theirs. This has the advantage of assured payment even when the two Magi are in different Tribunals. The buyer has the Vis on file and with delivery the Redcaps just adjust the books. And when you are dealing with Rooks or Queens of Vis it is very handy to do it on paper. Also if you want to bring a bunch of Vis with you on a trip, having it on deposit with House Mercere and withdrawing what you need at your destination saves the danger of moving large quantities of Vis yourself.

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Similarly f there is a glut of a specific type of vis its value may fall- which is entirely possible if you are selling 25 p/yr of the same arts year after year.

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Some good thoughts there, thanks. I didn't imagine the Mercere banks would be quick to deliver (though they might well have some ReTe teleport items for faster delivery for those signed up to Redcap Prime).

But if they frequently run out of (say) Corpus Vis, they really should be raising the prices, or there'll start to be a secondary market that I don't think they want. So I assume that is rare. (If it matters at all.)

I feel like there could be a good campaign (or boardgame) where the players are trying to run House Mercere as a business. Tough to GM, though.

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