Prices for items enchanted by Verditius magi

This is kind of a two-pronged question so bear with me:

Firstly, what options does a Verditius magus have to reduce the Vis cost when enchanting items. Page 93 of the core book suggests that his Craft skill can reduce the cost of opening for enchantment. So a sword of base metal forged by the magus with a Smithing skill of 5 would actually take 10 pawns of Vis to open ((3x5) - 5) plus whatever Vis is spent on the effects in the weapon. Are there any other ways the Verditius can reduce the cost of enchanting the effects into the weapon?

Secondly, page 114 of the Mystery Cults book suggests that a reasonable price for items enchanted by Verditius magi is 15 pounds of silver per pawn of Vis used in the enchantment (indeed, the Primus has decreed it).

There's also the price magi must pay (essentially three times the Vis used to make the item).

Now, is that based on the Vis it would have cost another magus - a base cost (i.e. before any reductions for being a Verditius) - or the Vis that is actually expended by the craftsman?

I'm inclined to think all this is based on the Vis actually expended. It's what makes greater enchanted items forged by Verditii the more attractive.

To my knowledge there is no other way to reduce the vis used. However, with Verditius Runes it allows you to use items and materials you normally wouldn't consider for an enchantment use them. That could potentially save a bit of vis.

As I read it, the amount of vis is based off of how much vis the Verditius used.

I think you're right. I've been searching through the source books and I can't find any other way of reducing the Vis required. Mind you, if you're a decent craftsman you can open a potentially very powerful item for very little Vis. That's not to be sniffed at.

Or is the Vis reduction covered by the Mystery, and thus not wildly known, or at least not proven, so Verditious magi charge full price?

Maybe their reputation as such amazing crafters partly extends from other Magi's surprise that they can can manipulate such large amounts of Vis for their skill level.

This is not quite what you are asking, but under the Hermetic Alchemy mystery, one of the Virtues (I don't have access to the book at the moment, so I am sure of the name) allows you to use a means of Vis extraction to infuse an item with the equivalent of vis. This vis can be used to either 1) reduce the amount of vis required to open the item for enchantment, or 2) add additional bonus slots above and beyond the amount allowed by the vis used to open it.

See, that's interesting. Going back to the sword that would normally take 15 pawns of Vis, if my magus had the Philosphic Alchemy virtue (major or minor) then, assuming a CrVi lab total of 50, he could reduce the vis required to only 5 pawns. Most magi in the order would know that Verditii are expert item smiths and would know that they can use vis more efficiently but the Mysteries are secret.

The magus could choose to either reap the profits or to undercut the market while maintaining his profit margins.

Sorry, it isn't my Verditius who's going to be thinking like this you understand, it's his Venditore.

My personal view on the matter is that the the fee charged could be based on the amount of vis that is technically required to create the item, and not on the amount actually required, but that the Verditius magi would likely offer a discount.

I feel this for two reasons:

A) If the Primus' law requires them to only charge for actual vis used, then that means that less skilled magi can charge more than higher skilled magi. For instance, Verditius Magus A, with a Weaponsmith skill of 6 can enchant said sword with 9 pawns of vis, whereas Veriditus Magus B, with a Weaponsmith score of 3, must enchant it with 12 pawns of vis. Why would the lesser magus be allowed to charge 36 pawns for the work, while his superior can only charge 27? The higher skilled magus' time would be of much more importance and value.

B) Since any magus could technically prep a sword for 15 pawns, it behooves a Verditius to discount his services. If he knows he can do it for 9 pawns, then perhaps he will say he can do it with 12, and charge only 36, rather than the 45 that a non-Verditius might require. Or, if demand is great, perhaps he discounts to the full value of his skill, charging only 27 pawns to insure he gets the commission, rather than that other Verditius down the street with whom he has vendetta.

While I agree with your reasoning regarding the first point, I don't think Verditius magi should be allowed to offer a discount. I see the price set as a "guild price", and breaking it as breaking guild laws. However, a Verditius may be able to receive payment "in kind", which in practice will allow him to set any price.

That is a good point, and I kind of like the idea of this being regulated like a guild, so rampant competition is eliminated. I am inclined to believe, then, that the House rule regarding the price of sales would be based on the theoretical amount of vis required, and not the actual amount used (allowing the Verditius to pocket the difference). This opens a door of underhanded possibilities as well, with potential kickbacks and such.

I think that's right; the payment scale is set by the Primus and that's that. However, the more skilled the magus is, the more likely that for the same cost he'll be able to build a better item.

I'm starting to look at this from entirely the other angle; not "how much will the sword cost me" but more "what kind of sword can I get for 20 pawns of vis".

If the price is 20 pawns, guess what, the more skilled Verditius smith is likely to make you a better sword than the novice for the same cost. There's nothing wrong with that.

Of course, that's the starting point. The more capable magus can enchant the sword quicker, provide higher penetration, and/or add all those little extras etc.

Hmm. Yes, that does make sense. But it runs into the problem of weaker Verditius being preferable when you need to invent a set item from them, as Nzld explained.

With the "Price Set By Hermetic Standard Costs" paradigm you get the same guild price on the items, so you will seek out the master Verditius craftsmen only if you need their high Arts and capabilities (powerful effects, less time, and so on). The skilled Verditius themselves will want to increase their skills to improve their gain from the trade.

With the "Price Set By Actual Vis Used" paradigm, you get to offer up your pawns to the highest bidder. You want the best Verditius to work on your project, regardless of its level, as he could produce more from the amount of raw vis you provide him with. The Verditius magi will only want to improve their skills to gain moe comissions, they will earn the same ratios of raw vis from the deals regardless of their skills.

I'm not sure what's best.

I don't agree (I think I did, but then I thought around it a bit more and changed my mind).

I'm just looking at what my Verditius could be selling over the coming game year. As he's not long past guantlet and despite living and working within a huge aura, he still can't manage very much on a single-season basis.

If you wanted a bespoke item your best bet is to find an experienced magus to make it: He'll simply have a much better chance of a) being able to make it and b) being able to make it in a reasonable time.

If vis cost alone is your issue, you need to find the best craftsman you can as the beauty of his work will negate the need for raw vis. Of course, the better craftsman gets stiffed in this as he doesn't get to charge as much as the duff one.

It's not the buyer that suffers from the purchase scale, it's the experienced maker that can't charge as much for the same invested device as the poor craftsman.

Ok...Heres my two pawns worth...

The price should be: Vis that should have been used....

I have a Verditius. He is about 100 seasons out of gauntlet. With his lab help he can make pretty darn good items with HUGE penetrations...
Having said that, I feel that the Vis deducted from the amount needed (due to his craft) goes into his pocket. What this means is the higher the skill of the craftsman, the more he makes. This is a great reason for the magi to continually work at improving his (non-magical) abilities, and to expending time to craft items that would help him in the lab...This of course leads to adventures as he goes about gathering the various things he needs.

After all...would you try to have a magus fresh out of gauntlet make that sword...or would you prefer ME to make that 'sword'...with 100 penetration on that pillum of fire?
Skill should have its price and its advantages.

Well, yes master swordsmith, but such a weapon would cost... does quick calculation... 15 pawns to open plus a further 8 pawns to enchant. Then there's your fee on top... that's 69 pawns of vis??? That's very nearly a Queen.

Now, if the Verditius was to reduce the cost in line with his ability to save vis through making the item himself... Perhaps 10 pawns to open and the eight to enchant. That's 18x3 for the final cost of 54. Not cheap and granted the Verditius doesn't make as much profit but the price is starting to look a little more achievable, especially if installments are acceptable.

Now, would a Verditius, on such a risky commission, agree to requirements such as limiting the item to only the commissioning magus?

Limiting the item? Of course. You are buying it. :slight_smile: There would be no cost for that...
As for the overall cost...well in that we differ.
I suppose the reason you see this as expensive, is because you are making a very basic item. If you want ME to make it, it would be as such...

Material list: Vis cost
Steel - blade, hilt and crosspiece. 15 Pawns
Gold wire wrapped hilt 10 Pawns
3 Priceless gems (both sides and pommel) 60 Pawns
----of course I could downsize these gems to include Red coral for anti demon spell effects...or not as you wish.

Total Vis cost to open: 85
Available spell slots: 85
Your proposal : 15

What this means is that this weapon would cost either:
255 Pawns
225 Pawns (Verditius reductions of 10)
depending on how you do it....

Of course you have payment options...

I think the real problem is you are looking at a very basic item. Its kind of (no offense intended) like calling an Electrician to plug in your television.
What you are paying for in this case is....Who else in the Order can stuff 85 Pawns of Vim into an item? If you want a sword with 15 pawns (spaces), simply have any magus with a decent MT score (or a new Verditius) craft it. You can work any price with other magi, but Verditius are constrained...

Of course I am taking the Verditius standpoint in this matter...gotta love
Now what did you want in it?

It's astonishingly easy to work up an incredible Vis capacity. We're taking a break from our Vis-poor Roman saga and playing a more magical one set in Rye. Access to enough Vis to even open a powerful device was rare but should be a little easier now.

It goes to show, beyond getting others to pay for the device, there could be a problem in some sagas of even getting the basic vis cost together.

Still, all food for thought. And I'm just trying to get started with a Verditius.

Yeah, scale is certainly a factor....

IMO most games that I've seen described are a little low...and that's compairing it to what I've seen published...and what has been put forth on line.