Pull of the skybound winds intent?

I am new to AM5, having played earlier versions of the rules many years ago (so long ago that I only vaguely recall them). So I am trying to get my head around the new rules with an example spell.

I have created an Auram specialist wizard who has mastered Pull of the Skybound Winds (CrAu30), which on further reading seems to be much more flexible than anticipated and also has a nasty side effect. Is the following the correct reading or intent of the rules?

  • The spell allows magic resistance so it automatically hits - no aiming roll required.

  • The spell is concentration duration - which at first sight seems a bit odd - I would have assumed momentary which would make it a magnitude less though perhaps less damaging - so I assume the intent is that you keep the target in the air as long as you concentrate, it only falls when you end the spell. So you can take an opponent out of combat and hold him in the air indefinitely - possibly hours if you have a high concentration. What other purpose could the duration of concentration have?

  • The spell cannot be moved - which would presumably require a Rego requisite and would then need to be aimed (at least on subsequent turns)

  • The spell pulls something "up to" 50 feet in the air. By which I assume the maga chooses the height pulled to - which could of course be zero feet if I just wanted to knock the person over and take a stress die of damage

  • As a magnitude 6 spell it qualifies as a powerful mystical effect and causes warping in the target with every use. So for example I could repeatedly knock over a tough and heavily armored grog for hours giving him hundreds of warping points in a day

Pretty much. The one correction I would suggest is that the warping is caused once, not "per round". If you want to give a target warping, there are spells to do that, but "continuing effects" give a warping point at the start, and once per Season. So no "hundreds of warping points".....

  1. Yes, so long as you can sense the target, you can can create the wind in his location without requiring a Finesse roll.

  2. Concentration duration allows you to hold the target in the air and then cease concentrating to drop the object on him. This requires a Finesse roll as noted in the spell description, but bypasses the Parma Magica (Wizard of Oz, anyone?). Killing a Magus by dropping his own Shield Grog on him earns double-points! :smiley:

  3. Yes, this is a Creo spell so it can create wind, but not control it precisely (the option of using Finesse to aim the spell indicated that some degree of control is possible, but I'd be very careful what I allowed the player to do in this regard).

  4. Make sense given the Duration ascribed...

  5. Hard to say. Technically, the air you're creating is the target of the spell not the grog, but since the spell is in the grog's space he could still be considered to be "exposed" to the magic - Noble's Parma

Hope this helps,

Let's say you "pull" a bloke into the air. You could then, for instance, have a bit of a conversation with them, with some modifiers that might overcome the usual penalties associated with The Gift. (Might take some work to overcome those same roaring winds, but hardly insurmountable.)

Alternately, if, say, you pulled a warhorse into the air... then few would be willing to walk under that floating warhorse, now, would they?

(Actually, as described, the spell specifies "one object" - but it could just as easily be interpreted to pull anything and everything that passed through that point up into the air. Many spells are based on earlier editions of the game, where spells and spell effects were not as neatly defined, and were often "faked". This is one of the cases where the narrative description and the Form/Technique definitions do not perfectly match.)

Yes, although if you were trying to be precise(hitting but not hitting then next person for example) i would ask for an aim roll anyway.

Nothing "perhaps" about it, momentary wouldnt have time to cause much of anything.
Could make it Diameter instead if you want to get rid of the Concentration part.

Yes, and the purpose could be simply to be able to keep the decision for when to end it openended.

Well, "zero" would mean you dont really let the spell be functional long enough to do much damage at all.

The person you hit isnt the target, the air you use to hit the target with is, no warping.

I disagree. For a single-round "throw" 50 paces upwards Momentary duration should be just fine.

Wielding the Invisible Sling can hurl items to roughly the same range and is of Momentary duration.

Crest of the Earth Wave is also of Momentary duration, and we know that it can last about a round (since the wave advances anout 50 paces in a round). In a round a hurricane force wind can easily pull stuff 50 paces upwards.

I agree with this disagreement... er...

"Momentary" seems to be about the duration of a round (~6 seconds, more or less), rather than a heartbeat or fingersnap. It's a very short period, but not instantaneous, so "some" stuff can happen - enough to toss a target high into the air and have them fall again, or make one quick combat attack, or generally complete one very brief action.

The grog is not the target of the spell, the air is. Thus, the grog is not the one who would recieve the Warping. The air gets warped instead. Do this often enough, and you might cause an air elemental to form.

The spell needs to overcome the magic resistance of the person hit by the air in order to affect him.

Therefore, the person is affected by a magical effect (if it overcomes his magic resistance).

Therefore, he takes the appropriate amount of Warping, each time that you successfully cast the spell on him.

(Certainly, the air might become Warped too).

Sorry, not as simply as that.
The spell targets the the air, whch is then moved magically.
If the poor fellow blow into the air has magic resistance, it can stop the magically affected air from touching him.

He is however, still not directly affected by the magical effect.

Other than your argumentation, I'm tempted to agree with you.

As others have said, technically the air is the target, but since it must interact with the victim as well, he would be eligable for warping. Nevertheless, other long term powerful effects only cause one point of warping per season unless specifically designed to do otherwise, so hundreds of warping points in one day would seem needlessly harsh.

For my own money, I tend to rule that short term effects don't cause warping unless the Guideline is sufficiently high level rather than the overall magnitude of the spell. It's fairly trivial to make a sixth magnitude spell based on a low level guideline which effectively done nothing at all, and inflicting warping for those doesn't make much sense to me - magnitudes represent complexity and difficulty as much as magical power.

That is arguable. I think that this is absolutely the wrong interpretation of these sorts of spells. The spell targets the person you are trying to hit with it. (It targets the air too).

However, that is secondary. Even if you think that the spell doesn't target the person you are trying to hit with it, that person still gets Warped. This is because you get Warping by being affected by magic, not by being targeted by magic.

If the spell failed to penetrate the character's magic resistance he would not be affected by it. Therefore if the spell does penetrate a character's magic resistance, he is affected by it. He is thus affected by a magical effect. This is sufficient to give him Warping. It doesn't matter who you think the "target" of the spell is.

Thanks everyone for your input. Food for thought.

In summary the points of contention for house ruling appear to be:

  • A momentary version of the spell is perhaps arguable, if so then I assume it would do 5 less damage for being one magnitude lower - which would be a 40' pull into the air rather than 50'

  • It may or may not cause warping - if it does then a good house rule is that it doesn't do so repeatedly. You also probably don't want to cast it in the same place repeatedly.

No, the SPELL targets the air which is directed by the spell to move in such a way that it interacts with whatever the spell is aimed at.

The AIR is affected by a magical effect.

Otherwise, any spell at or raised to sufficient level(including by making it Group +Size and Moon )causes warping, like Pilum of fire, people hit by Lord of the Trees or Twist the living tree, anyone hit by a weapon affected by Edge of the Razor or by a Crystal dart spell, Wrath of whirling winds and water will cause warping to everything in its reach, flying by means of Wings of the soaring wind will generate warping for the magi themself...

That was my reading of the rules as written and why I asked the question of the intent. I can see both arguments.

This is covered by the exclusion clause in item 2 on page 167 "unless you created the effect, or it was designed specifically for you" and you invent all your own spells. I assumed that clause was needed because it implied that all magnitude 6 spells that affect you would otherwise warp you (and as I was generating an Auram maga this is the spell I was thinking of at the time I read the warping rules).

Sigh - "Target" vs "target" again. (Not sighing at you, Rich - we're all the victims here.)

However the rules for Warping do not use that term! (see sig)

The way the rules do explain it is...

The counter-position seems to be that if a spell affects something in the material world (the "Target"), and then that magically affected thing affects something else (the "target"), that the target is thus "affected" by the spell. And I say - pffft.

While with only the first phrasing it could be interpreted that a person hit by a wall of wind is "affected" by that magic, I believe there is no valid interpretation that demonstrates that such a person is either "under a powerful mystical effect" nor "subjected to a powerful mystical effect".

If all it took was for a person to feel an immediate difference in their life (thus, "be affected"), then if a 6th magnitude spell were used to...

  1. ... create a wave to push a boat, then the boat and all aboard are warped, "having been affected" by the magic.

b) ...give a grog +Strength spell on them, and they then lift up a peasant, the peasant is then warped - they were "affected" by the spell - no different than being lifted by magical air or pushed by magical water.

iii) ...as a more subtle example, yet one still absolutely parallel, to cause a person to spread false information - every other person's mind who "comes in contact" with that person, and who believes that information and then acts on it, is "affected" by that spell (a Mentem spell, with Mentem affects), and thus is warped "because they are affected".
However, none of these "targets", these persons who are secondarily effected by the primary magical affect, are "under or subjected to a powerful mystical effect" - no more than grogs living in a tower permanently conjured by (6th magnitude) magic would be "under" such an effect, or someone who meets a person cursed with a terrible stench is "subjected to" that powerful magical effect - not in the same sense that the Target is, which is the only person/thing warped.

If it were, then anyone ever walking across a (Lvl 30+) magically created bridge is warped - as they clearly are equally directly "subjected to" the benefits of the bridge being there.

We could take this to more absurd extremes of "being affected by a high level spell" (healing spells on people who then interact with others, patching roofs to keep people dry, illusions which people see) but none of them are essentially different, since none of them "subject" the target to the effect itself, nor is the target ever themselves "under" that effect. Thus, "affect" cannot (in this context) be intended to mean "have any end influence on" a target, merely coming into (often violent) contact with active magic. It must, imo, mean "as a Target of the magic". (Or, if not, the words were very poorly chosen, and I refuse to believe that until a writer fesses to it.) :wink:

A momentary magnitude 6 spell packs all its magical punch into a few seconds and is then gone. Whereas say a sun mag 6 spell spreads its magical punch out throughout the day. So I would have said warping depends on being there for a significant part of the spells duration (over half the time according to the warping rules). For spells which become permanent after casting then the warping effect is over after the initial casting.

In the case of a pull of the skybound winds spell (conc or same level as diameter - 2 minutes) then over one minutes exposure would give the warping. Whereas for the incantation of lightning (momentary) then the struck person is there for the entire duration.

IMO of course

This is not what "affected" means in a technical sense in ArM5. You are conflating the common sense meaning of the word "affected" with the technical sense in ArM5.

In ArM5, you need to be "directly" affected, which I realize is sometimes ambiguous. The best test, I think, is that if you would not be affected by a zero Penetration version of the effect, due to having a Magic Resistance, then you are affected by the effect if it does penetrate your Magic Resistance (or you have no Magic Resistance).

To use your examples.

The people in the boat don't get a chance to resist. Therefore, they are not "affected".

If the effect is Aimed at the boat, then the boat is not "affected" either, and so it does not Warp. On the other hand, if the effect auto-magically hits the boat (so a boat with Magic Resistance could resist), then the boat is "affected", and so can Warp.

Depends on the type of strength spell. If the strength spell was a Momentary duration ritual, then there is no active magic, so the peasant is not Warped.

If on the other hand, the grog's strength spell is an ongoing effect with non-Momentary duration, then the peasant will get an opportunity to use Magic Resistance to resist the grog, and so if he doesn't, then he can be Warped, because he is being affected by a magical effect.

Note, that if the peasant was sitting on a cart, and the cart was lifted by the grog (with a non-Momentary duration strength effect cast on him), then the peasant would not get a chance to resist, and so would not Warp. The cart would be able to resist, and be Warped, however.

This only Warps the initial person whose mind is affected by the spell. Nobody else gets an opportunity to use their Magic Resistance to resist this misinformation, therefore nobody else is "affected", and they do not get Warped.

You are absolutely right that doesn't mean "have any influence" on something.

Note that the distinction between "Target" and "target" is never mentioned in the RAW. There are only targets.

Never defined. It's been confirmed on these boards by writers/editors that that was an intended distinction, which is why it's capitalized in some places, not in others.

If you're going by what's defined in the book, then the definition that you premise your position on would exist in the RAW, that to be "affected" means to be able to resist with magical resistance - but it doesn't. Your position is premised entirely on your synthetic interpretation - mine is based on the Target/target distinction, which does exist.

All things equal, either works as well.

Sorry to clarify. Yes, I think that there is an intended distinction between target and Target.

However, I don't think that the distinction that you are trying to draw between target and Target is the intended one.