Question about Demon's Eternal Oblivion

Just curious about something on Demon's Eternal Oblivion. I recently helped a player in my campaign to make a wand with this spell in it. Just want to go through how we made the item first.
Since this was an item with one effect (Demon's Eternal Oblivion) at level 15, it's a Lesser Enchanted Item. Two uses per day for +1, +16 for 32 more in Penetration. One year duration multiplies the excess by 10, so she managed to make this in one season, which is required for a Lesser Enchanted Item.
So far so good. What can I say? She REALLY needed that wand... fast! :slight_smile: :smiling_imp:

But, the spell in this wand is what I'm curious about. On the Perdo Vim Guidelines, it says on a General spell that you destroy level +10 in Might. But on the description of Demon's Oblivion, it says you destroy only the spell's level. It has Voice Range. Has the 10 extra levels from the guidelines been used to give it Voice Range instead? Am I missing some rule here?

Eirik

There's a few issues here:

This doesn't make it a lesser enchanted item, but a low level does make it a good candidate for one. A high level item can also be a lesser enchanted item depending on the skill of the inventor.

The 10 difference does come from the Voice range. Assuming you don't want to touch the Demon, the power that reduces the Might is basically even with the total level because of this. If you shorten the range, then it follows the General guidelines you mentioned.

So with this wand, the Deom's might is reduced by 15, penetrates any demon up to level 30. Works pretty well.

Another idea would be to make charged items; 'Holy Hand Grenades' one Season of work can make one or two maybe, but the next time it's made (using the Lab Text) more can be made.

Yes, the maga had a lab total of 27 for this one, and managed to get it done in one season when adding expiry to the item. That makes it a lesser enchantment, right? In addition to being just one effect?

Being Lesser Enchantment is only conditioned upon the number of enchantments in the item (i.e. 1 only) and the fact that it is made in one season. The designation has nothing to do with the modifiers you attach to the enchantment such as Expiry.

See page 96 (ARM5) for the description of Greater/Lesser/Charged Items.

Right, ok. Then this wand works as we made it. :slight_smile:

E.

I don't understand your math.

DEO base level is 15.
+1 level for 2/day frequency, so we're at level 16.
+16 for penetration 32, so we're at level 32.
Lab total 27<32, the magus can't make the item. With this lab total, the best he could do is a level 13 effect as a lesser enchanted device, which is too low to even invest the base effect. [Edit: With expiry after a year, a lab total of 27 would suffice to invest a level 24 effect in a season, allowing the magus to invest a DEO at level 15, usable 2/day, with penetration 16.]
As the item expires in a year excess lab total benefits from x10, but only the excess. The magus would need an excess of 4x10 to finish the item in one season, so a lab total of 36 is required to make this item as a lesser enchanted device.
If he managed that lab total, then yes he can (and should) make the item as a lesser enchanted device, and it has just one effect.

Ok, let's go through it. Maybe I did something wrong here, but I think I forgot to mention a couple of things on the lab total.

DEO base level is 15
+16 for Penetration of 32
+1 for 2 uses per day
Total: 32

Lab Total
+5 Perdo
+9 Vim
+2 Int
+4 Magic Theory
+8 Aura (yes, it's powerful, but flickering.. it's one of the main story hooks for the covenant)
+4 for Wand shape (destroy things at a distance)
+1 for Rowan material (Vim, from Guardians of the Forests)
+4 for Familiar Spell

Lab Total: 37
32 is used on the effect, the last 4 is multiplied by 10. :slight_smile:

lol. Yes Ferretz, I must say I wondered at a Lab Total of merely 27 even for a starting character. As you can see, it always pays to do the math carefully :wink:

With that lab total and the expiry, yes it is entirely doable in a season.

I do suggest you get your maga to up her Art scores and improve the quality of her lab with additional refinements and Virtues so that she can make further enchanted devices that don't have to expire (or at least not so quickly).

Well, she's a starting maga, and the only special thing with her lab is the Free Flaw Subterranean. :slight_smile:
And they she really needed that wand on one season. They are planning to attack a Might 30 demon (Infernal Dragon) with a lair with Infernal Aura 5. Wish them luck! :smiling_imp:

E.

Serfs parma but can't shape + material bonus' only add up to a maximum of the magi' magic theory.

So the wand shape +4 and the rowan wood +1 should be capped at +4 rather than a combined +5.

Oh, yes. Forgot about that one. :slight_smile:

E.

Hmm.. how about making it a charged item with expiry in one year. It would look something like this then:

DEO base level is 15
+16 for Penetration of 32
Total: 31

Lab Total
+5 Perdo
+9 Vim
+2 Int
+4 Magic Theory
+8 Aura (yes, it's powerful, but flickering.. it's one of the main story hooks for the covenant)
+4 for Wand shape (destroy things at a distance)
+4 for Familiar Spell

Lab Total: 36
31 is used on the effect, the last 5 is multiplied by 10. This makes 10 charges.

Better, I think. :slight_smile:

E.

Sounds like they'll need it :smiling_imp:

Doing things as charges does seem better. Saves on raw vis, and it's not like the maga is planning on using the item more than 10 times, I'd wager.

They almost charged into the cave last session with any way of hurting the demon. Well, they're all pretty new to Ars Magica, and most of them have only played D&D. :stuck_out_tongue:

E.

There is still a problem with that solution as I see.

You can't apply the surplus 5 (*10 for 1 year expiry) to the charges since you need 31 of that to account for the doubling of the lab total to allow for one season manufacture. that would only leave 19 for 3 charges.

However, the expiry lab total modifier, as I understand it, is ONLY a means of enabling faster item creation. It does not provide additional points with which a maga/magus could achieve something he otherwise could not achieve with his non-modified Lab Total. Therefore the additional 19 shouldn't even be considered useable extra points for charges.

I really suggest you advise your maga to hold her horses and go study for a season or two to improve her Art scores and then try again for a Lesser Enchanted item solution in the second or third season.

Right, to make a Charged Item, I design the level of effect (31). For every five levels the Lab Total (36) goes over the level of effect, we get one charge. Now this is one charge, or 10 if I'd allow Expiry (which I'd allow on Charged Items anyway).
For charged items, as I read it, you don't need to double the level of effect. That's for Invested and Lesser Items.

E.

You are right about Charged Items only requiring the comparison of Lab Total to final adjusted level of effect with any excess Lab Total providing the number of charges (minimum one even if no excess Lab Total). However, the purpose for the Effect Modifier, clearly stated on page 99, is NOT to provide additional lab points for purposes of the enchantment (effect) itself, but merely to allow the magus to do his enchantment faster (i.e. in the ONE month time limit in this case). It is a time modifier not a Lab Total addition, as it were.

Thus you maga should only be allowed to do what she could naturally do with the Lab total she has (36) which means 1 charge (excess of 5).

You can be as generous as you like of course, but it isnt RAW if you give her the expiry as part of her usable lab total.

Once you set that precedent don't be surprised when the next magus (Lab total 50, say) wants to put an area decimation effect level 75-100 into a device using the expiry rules as he/she has seen you use in this case. :wink:

Yes, I see it on page 99. I misread the Expiry-rules. :stuck_out_tongue:

E.

Cool. Actually by going the Charged Item route, no expiry is needed as it will be built into the device by expenditure of the charge itself.

What you might want to suggest, if this IS a group raid in the planning, is that each magus create a similar device in that same season so they each have a wand of nasty demon dragon smiting to use. Then even if they all only have one charge, they could fire them in firing squad fashion at the same time or one after another to see if the beastie isnt vaporized on the first, second or third wizard's shot, etc.

That way whoever hasn't used theirs (if any) by the time the demon is obliterated can have a useful usable charged item left to tuck away in the covenant stores for later necessity.

Well, it's only one player with a season to spare, so we have one season for one maga to make some kind of weapon to harm an Infernal Dragon. She's got Perdo 5, Vim 9, Int +2 Magic Theory (Vim) 3, Aura 8. She knows Demon's Eternal Oblivion on level 20.
The demon has might 30, and lives in an Infernal Aura 5.

What to do? These players are all pretty novice in Ars Magica. They don't know much about working together.. :confused:
The players playing this maga with the spare season (she missed a session), is just learning the rules, in fact, having never played rpgs before. But she's doing very well. :slight_smile:

E.