Question: InMe spells that see ghosts

Our group has found two references in the books for spells that allow a magus to see ghosts.


Reveal the Lingering Spirit InMe20 True Lineages p.14
See The Spirits of The Night InMe30 Ancient Magic p.50

Both spells allow you to "see" ghosts.

What is the difference in these two spells? Did the see the spirits of the night spell superseded the lvl 20 version with the same effect, or are the effects different? the True Lineages version has a base of 3 while the Ancient Magic version has a base of 5. Does the base 5 spell do more than the base 3 spell? Are these InMe base guidelines published anywhere that would tell us what the differences are?

Any help appreciated. Thanks

Well, if you'd included the descriptions we could see what they ~claim~ to do, but...

In as much as there is ~no~ Base 3 Guideline for InMe in the core rules, I'd stick with the other. Altho' neither description there (ArM5 , p 149) makes much sense, imo:

"Base 5 - Sense a Single Emotion in a being; Understand the meaning behind spoken sounds."

I always believed in Base 4, "Sense the state of consciousness in one being". By focusing that purely on "ghosts", I've always believed that that does the job nicely, tho' possibly a level of complexity is appropriate. Or, the writers interpreted "a single emotion" as being the equiv of spotting a particular, specific state of mind, here "being a ghost". ymmv.

(Base Guidelines are in the Core Book, under the TeFo in the Spells section. Don't know if these Guidelines are expanded in either of the books you mention - could be, but dunno.)

One of these should be submitted as errata. I will notify David.

I missed the first spell in HoH: True Lineages when creating what I thought was a new guideline. [It should really be a separate insert because I recently re-read that chapter and missed it again.] Unfortunately, all the playtesters and the editor missed it too. It's up to David which guideline he decides to use.

Given that Level 4 (InMe) identifies the state of consciousness of an individual it should be easier to merely identify the presence of an individual.

I can't discuss why level 5 was chosen, NDA and all that.

*Starts the "Base 5" conspiracy working group to ferret out the truth of the matter! :wink:

Thank you. I will await the official response then.

So, you would suggest the Base 3 guideline, but which will be "canon"? That is, which is going to remain after the other falls prey to the errata?

(While your rationale works for me, the Guidelines to other Techniques of Mentem, ReMe, for instance, suggest that controling a spirit is tougher than controlling an emotion. Not that the same ~must~ be true for Intellego, but...) :confused:

Maybe it should be Base 3 (Sense an individual), but Base 5 (Sense a Mentem spirit). If you compare the levels to InVm, it's generally hard to detect magical things unless they are powerful, which is still hard if it's a creature with MM because you have to penetrate. It's hard out there for a magus...

Hum... Since ghosts have MR, should'nt it be possible to indirectly detect them by forcelessly casting some Im spell designed to illuminate things or something like this? Any "dark" or non-affected area would be a ghost

fine until you do and find yourself surrounded by darkness :wink:

True Lineages will get errata'd; the base should be 5.

I'll try to get new errata up some time soon, but I'm still on holiday. :wink:

It would be anything with MR, including folk charms, tiny demons, and so on, yes.

Except that ghosts can be invisible and light can pass through them, which mucks this up entirely, IMO.

However, perhaps you are falling prey to the imposition of modern concepts of light in this instance. Do we have any idea what the medieval thinking on spirits might have been? Perhaps it is supposed that their appearance is due to a luminescence all their own. :question:

Just musing of course.

I'm not sure how your point addresses mine. Could you put it another way?

Seems fairly straightforward. You are supposing that light would pass through a ghost and thus muck up any attempt to see them with InIm spells. I suggested that what you posit seems based more on a modern understanding of light/invisibility than perhaps the medieval paradigm would support.

I think that we're talking about ignem here not imagonem. (Or maybe I'm the one who isn't getting it.)

A magus is a room with an invisible ghost (or for that matter an invisible faerie/ demon/ magus/ whatever) the magus then casts a creo ignem spell with no penetration. Does the magic resistance of the invisible entity result in the appearance of a shadow on the wall behind it?

I'd think so, the magical light can't penetrate the MR.

Well, my response was to your response to this post by Fixer...

(emphasis mine)

The concept in question was Imaginem, not Ignem, but that's beside the point of my post which seems to have confused you so. The point again being that you are seeming to suggest that the invisibility factor would hinder any forceless spell designed to illuminate the spirit/invisble entity (as suggested by Fixer) whilst I suggest that this kind of thinking seems to be an imposition of modern understandings of light refraction and such.

Since Fixer's idea was Im and not Ig he is merely trying to make the entity with MR stand out from its surroundings, not shoot light at it.

Thus, perhaps you ARE the one who isnt getting it. :wink:

Ugh, this type of solution makes my stomach hurt.

Altho' it may work btr, as a SG I tend to discourage this. It just smells of cheese to me. It's more abusive than creative, and feels like a cheat rather than an innovation - if it was that easy, the whole Order would do it. Maybe they do in your saga, but not mine... :wink:

I'd say you couldn't sidestep invisibility like this (as cool as it would be) as the species (sp?) created by magic aren't in themselves magical and thus pass through magic resistance unhindered.

Xavi introduced a somewhat similar notion more or less a year ago in a thread on detection through negation.

In short something like this should be doable. With one form or another - all you need is some spell effect you can spot whether takes effect or not and then use Forceless Casting.

Imaginem might be a bit tricky - partly because a spell would have to penetrate, but species themselves wouldnt, even if created by some magical means, and partly because there's the lingering question of the nature of ghosts and what species they eminate in the first place..

Personally I believe, to cite Erik Tyrrell in that other thread, that not allowing some form of this spell "you end up with a less consistant system", but at the same time detection by negation does to me feel a bit cheesy. With my own troupe my approach would be never myself to suggest such a spell and leave it at that - hoping it wouldnt come up.

And here's a food for thought - such a spell would disclose any invisible being or thing in the vicinity. It might even earn you a new enemy as not all invisible beings like being disturbed.... And as discussed in the older thread, if it is a magus it might lead to a heated discussion on whether you've just scryed on a fellow member of the Order. A postulation full of grounds for counterpostulations - but nevertheless a posibility for a completely new spin-off story.

Just as the discovery of an invisible magus in the vicinity of the caster might all the more put the onus on the one discovered to defend him/herself against charges of scrying upon his fellows magically. :wink: