Question on Affinity With Art

Another rules question (I'm not a rules lawyer honest! I just don't understand a lot of them).

Affinity with Art states that during character creation any XP you put into that Art are increased by 1/2.

So, I'll be taking Skilled Parens and Affinity with Creo. That gives me a base of 300 XP right?

Assuming I take this:-

Intellego - 10
Muto - 4

Corpus - 7
Imaginem - 2
Mentem - 10
Vim - 10

Am I right in saying that I would be left with 94 points but with Affinity with Art (Creo) I could put 141 into Creo??? Have I understood this correctly?

I would say so, yes.


Well technically you could (depending on Sg of course) but do note that the SUGGESTED rule for starting characters re: Art score limits is no more than 10 in any Art straight out of Apprenticeship.

Having said that, you could probably still get some benefit from the Affinity and not offend the sensibilities of the SG or other players by simply getting yourself to a 10 (or 11 since one character already has that much in his focus Art) on the cheap.

An 11 in Creo would normally cost 66xp, but with affinity you could get it for 44 xp and still leave yourself 50 points to spend on abilities or other Arts.

Oh, yeah. Note that you will have no spells at all if you do that; you will have spent all your points in Arts. The spells you have also come from that XP pool, so you will have a blank grimmore when the saga starts. No matter how strong your arts are, that is generally a Bad Idea (TM).



Err...are you sure about that? I don't see where it says that in the rules. You get 240 pts to spend on Arts and then you get to choose 120 levels of spells, it doesn't say anything about using XP to buy those spells.

I'm reading through the Darius example and it seems to confirm this.

Actually Xavi, the pool for abilities according to page 29 guidelines (if i read it correctly) says 240 xp for Arts/abilities (from apprenticeship) and a separate 120xp for spell levels. With Skilled Parens this should be 300xp and 150 xp respectively.

Or am I wrong?

Oh, that is it, then. Been a while since I generated a full character. I thought it was 120 for arts/spells.

If you spend the 300 points on arts, your mage will not know anything besuides magic. Not even how to write/read, how does his area of origin look like, how to speak latin, basic knowledge of magic theory, etc etc....

Not a good idea for a balanced character :wink:


True to some extent yes, Xavi, but don't forget that is only the xp given for Magi to represent their apprenticeship.

On top of those points characters also have 15 xp per year after 5 years of age to spend on abilities. so if your character starts at age 25 he/she has yet another 300 xp to spend on non Hermetic abilities.

Yes, as I understand it it goes

5 for whatever language you speak
45 pts for basic stuff (swim, ride, athletics etc)
15 x number of years in apprenticeship (in my case that's 15 years). So that makes 225 (or 285 if you use the Skilled Parens bonus here)

240 pts for Arts & abilities (or 300 if you use the Skilled Parens here instead)
120 levels of spells (150 with Skilled Parens)


Incorrect. 15xp per year is nothing to do with apprenticeship. It is purely for mundane abilities based on age and has nothing to do with Skilled Parens virtue.

If i remember correctly, you said your character was starting at age 23. This would mean that in this part of the xp pool, you get 18x15=270xp for non-Hermetic abilities (Area Lores, Languages, Artes Liberales, Philosphiae, Folk Ken, Etiquette, Charm, Guile, Intrigue, etc.)

Not "if you use Skilled Parens here", Skilled Parens virtue is ONLY meant to be used here. This is your xp from your apprenticeship.

Yes... don't forget to consider things like area lore from the character's home, or profession/craft for the parents.

No. You don't get the 15 xp per year for your apprenticeship-- you get the 15xp per year for the years prior to your apprenticeship. If your magus is 23, you'd have 45xp here for years 6, 7, and 8.

As BoXer mentioned, this would be the only place to spend the points in Skilled Parens.

So, at this point, you'd have Language 5, 45 childhood xp, 45 pre-apprentice xp, 300 apprentice xp, and 120 levels of spells.


Whoah whoah...I've got two different answers here.

I think you are wrong Leonis

You get 45xp for early childhood and then 15 xp per year for Later Life right?

Can someone tell me the exact totals I should be using because I have redone my abilities 5 times now already!!!!

Look at the example magi on ArM5, pg24-28, they certainly don't have an additional 225xp for abilities in addition to their 240xp for apprenticeship.

Reading the Example, Darius of Flambeau on page 31-32 shows that Darius only gets the 15pts of xp per year of later life for each year before apprenticeship. Once he begins apprenticeship, he only gets the 240 xp for that 15 year block.

So, for a 23 year-old magus with the Skilled Parens virtue that completed his apprenticeship at age 23, you would have:

native language 5
childhood xp: 45
later life xp: 45
Apprenticeship: 240+60 (skilled parens)

Childhood and later life xp could be spent on General abilities unless you had virtues or flaws that permitted other academic, arcane, or supernatural abilities. (I guess you could have a child warrior or branded criminal, and take martial skills, as well.)

You do not get the later life xp for the time spent in apprenticeship. You have to divide that apprenticeship xp between the Arts and the (Arcane) abilities needed to be a magus-- Latin, Magic Theory, Artes Liberales, Parma, Concentration, Finesse, Penetration, Code of Hermes, Order of Hermes Lore, Profession Scribe, any other appropriate lores, like Fae, Magic, Infernal, or Divine. Remember, you need a score of 5 in a language to write a book in that language.

A possible breakdown might be: Latin 4 (50), Magic Theory 3 (30), Artes Liberales 2 (15), Parma Magica 1 (5), Concentration 1 (5), Finesse 1 (5), Code of Hermes 1 (5), Order of Hermes Lore 1 (5), Profession [Scribe] 1 (5), Magic Lore 1 (5) for a total cost of 125 points.

With Skilled Parens, that leaves you 175 points to put into Arts, perhaps giving you 5 arts at 6, 4 at 5, and one at 4. Standard apprentices would only have 115 points for Arts.

This does tend to make apprentices created in-saga more powerful than initial characters-- teaching qualities, access to books, adventure experience, etc. All of it can result in a feasibly more potent finally gauntleted magus than the stock creation process.

Take a look at Koresh of Flambeau on the sanctum hermeticum site: ... oresh.html

(although it does have one minor mistake-- Koresh's pater's teaching quality goes up by one after his Age 10, Spring. [Possibly by 2, as Darius could specialize in one-on-one teaching to give himself an effective teaching quality of 10 {-1Com+2teaching+3+6singleStudent}ArM5 pg164] and then again by 1 at Age 15. Finally by 1 more after his final season at Age 22. This changes his scores slightly over time.)

Hopefully this helps.


And your magus has 150 level of spells.

The table on the page 26 is quite simple.

Rules suggest 55xp/Art as a limit. Usually it means level 10 but your affinity multiplier let you reach 12th level.

hmm I'm not sure I agree with this. Looking at the sample characters from the core rulebook they all have much more xp in abilities than a mere 240 (from apprenticeship) divided between Arts and Abilities would suggest.

From my reading of the Detailed Character Creation box on page 29 it imposes no caveat that says "Later Life (only for non-magus characters)" or (not concurrent with apprenticeship xp for magi).

As I see it, apprenticeship is usually 1 season per year of tutelage over 15 years. The other 3 seasons could easily have been spent in part learning from covenant staff (professional, academic), reading books (academic), or even getting some martial training from the covenant turb for a separate 15 xp (i.e. 5 per season) toward non-hermetic abilities over the course of "later life" which also happens to be "apprenticeship".

Since post Gauntlet magi are awarded 30 xp per year (base) according to the guidelines, I see nothing incompatible with both sets of xp, as mentioned in post above, being available at character gen.

YMMV, of course.

Look at the Verditius on page 28. He has:

Affinity: Craft(Metalsmith)

He's 25, so Age 5, then 6-10 as later life, then 11-25 as apprenticeship, should be about 360xp adjusted for affinities.

And his skills are:

ArtLib 1(5), Awareness 3 (30) Athletics 2 (15), Craft[metalsmith] 5 (50+25affinity), Craft[stonemason] 4 (34+17affinity), Fae Lore 2 (15), Latin 4 (50), Magic Theory 3 (30), Parma 1 (5), Philosophae 1 (5)

For 239... then looking at Arts...

Cr 7 (28), In 3 (6), Mu 5 (15), Pe 3 (6), Re 5 (15), Te 12 (55+27affinity)

for 125... so a total of 364, and 120 levels of spells. Pretty close. The kind SG probably let him have the four points of overflow from his Terram Affinity put into his Stonemasonry to even things out.

That 240 xp for apprenticeship isn't just 240xp... it's really 360xp-- you're not counting the 120 levels of spells, which cost 1xp per level for further developed magi.

360xp for 15 years is 24xp a year... just about right, given most apprentices get 1 season of lessons, a season or two in the lab, and possibly a season to study on their own in the library. (Teaching source of 8-10, 4 exposure, a book quality of 10ish?) A good library or a quality teacher can accelerate that process quite a bit, and it's apparent that it helps to be a later student of a magus, rather than the first. Skilled Parens indicates just that-- you're getting a full 30 xp a year of your apprenticeship.

We could look at others, but I'm pretty sure they'll show the same balance.

One more, just to check...

Looking over the Merinita, he has 240 in skills, and 120 in Arts...

And the Ex Misc?

245 in skills...and 113 in Arts... he's been robbed of 2 points! Kick that Co score to 2!

It's looking just like I'd said... no Later Life xp for magi in Apprenticeship.


Did you calculate the years before apprenticeship? 15xp/year

Leonis_Bjornaer called it later life xp.

Many samle characters were corrected in the errata because such little 1-2 xps.

Ok, did the math and you're spot on. Mea culpa!

:slight_smile: nonono, I want that apprentice in the lab, earning his keep and increasing my lab total as much as feasible. This is no laxadasical vacation through community classroom, we're working magic! :wink: He'll be getting as much pertinent education as quick as we can, and then he's measuring components, scribing notes, assisting in experiments and enchantments. He might be a magus' legacy, but no one wants the reputation of being a cupcake. If that apprentice has time for training with the turb then the magus had better be some kind of very martial oriented wizard or incapacitated for some reason. Martial skills are what the grogs are for. Well, grogs and hoplites. :wink:

A decent apprentice should be kicking in at least 3 to 5 to your lab total, depending on how complete his education is. It's not a lot, but it's going to be a help over time. Plus, there's the relationship that develops between those two magi-- assuming the pater's not a complete dirtbag, the two should maintain a friendly mentor-student relationship, one that allows for discourse, exchange of information, possibly assistance. If the filius remains at the pater's covenant, there could be great benefits depending on the season of the covenant.

(heeheehee, train with the turb...that image makes me smile.)

Hey!, turbs are people too! :wink: