Question regarding magic resistance

A question regarding how magic resistance is working, it have probably been asked before but I could not fins any post on it.

If I have understood things correctly you get to use your parma magica and magic resistance (roll + form) if you are targeted by a spell. Like if I want to permanently blind a opponent by using a MuCo spell.

But what if I use a CrAq spell and shoot a torrent of water at some one. Do they suffer the full effect of the spell like every one else or do they get to use their parma magica and magic resistance?

As far as I know if you happen to be in a forrest and I torch it with magic you suffer the effects of the fire as any one else as it is just a normal fire.

So is the "magic line", if you will, when I try to torch the magus directly compared to blasting them with a torrent of water?


Hi! This is undoubtedly PeCo rather than MuCo, but I take your meaning. There are many discussions on Magic Resistance on the boards, some very animated (contentious), and House Rules for it seem the norm, rather than the exception! :slight_smile:

*edit although you could MuCo someone's eyes into air, or water, fire, or species with Part target, and once these things are scattered, it would be...difficult to reassemble, even as the transformation reverts after D: ends. So MuCo can potentially blind someone permanently! Or kill, this is for another thread, I guess.

Creating a medium, which is what this spell does (water) is resistible, it's magic water still. If you create it as a Momentary Ritual (not convenient for combat), it is real water, and is not resisted, but it costs vis, time, and fatigue. You could use a very potent Torrent to destroy the landscape nearby, maybe collapse a cliff, wash away the earth underneath your foe's feet, and have those indirect effects harm your opponent/s, but the water itself would need to penetrate.

Well it depends on how you do it. Personaly I was thinking of just melding the eyelids shut. Hence the MuCo. But that is not of importance.

So what you are saying is that it is magic water therefor you can resist it. But do that not go against the whole thing about if something burns down it is not restored after the duration run out as it is in fact real fire?

In a similar way if I make magic water in a bucket and then put your head in it to drown you do you get to resist it, as it is magic water and not permanent water (not used vis to create it)?

And if I would have used vis to alter the duration to permanent (if the spell allows it) would that make the medium non magic?

I think it is pretty clear cut on the whole indirect spells thing in general. Like if I levitate a huge boulder and drop it on someones head. Or make a big ice ball up hill and just pushes it down. But I find these grey zones to be very lacking in explanations. =/

Thanks again for taking the time and effort to help me. =)

MuCo spells last as long as their duration. I guess you could do a D:Conc and Sustain it with a Moon:D spell, and keep on doing that every Moon; maybe a Merinita can do an "Until" version.

Not sure I am following you. A magic fire burns trees because they have no MR, fires started by the initial CrIg spell are natural and can burn even those with MR without needing to check.
The water does not potentially affect your foe because he does have MR and you are directly impacting him, if you dunk his head in a bucket of magically created water, the MR will potentially keep him from getting wet, from drowning, etc. The CrAq torrent is not releasing other naturally occurring torrents (mangling your example a bit), which themselves would not be resisted.

In this particular case, I don't think it's that grey. Perhaps if you trap a magus in an airtight cistern from which he can't get out, and fill it with magically created water, he might eventually die of asphyxia, because the water pushes most of the air out, and the trapped magus only has a finite supply. But he wouldn't drown! Even if his Parma runs out, he would already have resisted the effect, and with a MR of 0 at least (from Form of Aquam) would not be affected by an effect he already resisted.

Most of the MR discussions I have read center on the pink-dot debate.

You are coming close to the pink dot issue.

This stupid knight is attacking you with a sword. And oh boy is it painful to be hit by a sword. So you cast a spell on the sword, some cosmetic MuTe that puts a pink dot on the sword. Now the sword is magical and your Parma Magica can stop it.

In the general case, The Crystal Dart is stopped for 2 reasons: Muto a stone into crystal makes it a magical object, and Rego pushes it into the target. Compare to the Sling of Vilano that throws a (mundane) stone like a (mundane) sling and avoids the whole parma issue.

I am aware of the magical sword thingy.

But I felt this was different.

For me if I magically start a fire, after the duration is over that fire will continue to burn. Given that there is enough fuel to sustain it (and ignoring other special circumstance where a fire would not burn). For me a fire is a fire. It is similar to crating a hole. It do not magically undoes after the duration is over. Similar to how things that are burned do not magically reform.

Similarly magically created water would not just disappear after the duration runs out. So do it then become normal water?

But it appears that there is a subcategory of things/matter. Where a thing can be magical and thus is repelled by the magic protection. Giving things very strange properties.

Would you allow a player to create magical water and then just walk over it thanks to there magic protection? It would stand to reason that the protection would be able to keep them from sinking into the water. Or maybe running over the water would be more probable.

Would a magic boat even be able to be used on magic water?

Non the less people are basically saying that every thing that comes from a magic origin, unless created with vis to be made permanently, gives the person affected a magic resistance roll.

How are you guys handling the sub matter in your games, any funny interactions that have happen?

Again thank you all for taking the time to help me. =)

Hi! But that is not how things work in Ars Magica. Things created by Creo magic last for D, that's it, and if they interact with MR, they must penetrate to have a direct effect . Creo Ritual magic with Momentary Duration actually creates natural (loosely, this is Mythic Europe, after all, as it can create dragons, magical towers, etc) things that do not need to Penetrate. But again, this takes vis, time, and Fatigue. So that Magi don't suddenly create gold/silver/monstrous palaces willy-nilly! Certainly a CreoIg fire may produce enough heat to light other things on fire (I believe some of the Core spells mention this), but those others are natural, and not resisted. And a Perdo hole with D>Mom. can last for a limited amount of time, kinda weird, but it's magic! A PerdoTe hole with D:Mom lasts because a hole in the ground is not unnatural, and things being destroyed is not unnatural, so Perdo magic can have lasting/permanent effects.

But it does disappear! It had only substance by the Magus's skill and will, and lasts as long as it was designed to last. It can be dispelled by the right PeVi spell! It does not really provide sustenance, but that's right there in Core.
Unless CrAq Mom. Ritual, etc.
Like walls that are created for a moment for defense, like a vine ladder, like a Glamour Dragon, all depend on Duration. They can have lasting effects, a created bee swarm can be nasty. (someone without help from MR, can drown in a magically created pond; or die if he is floating on water that has been created to fill a pit, and the D: ends, and they drop however deep the pit was).

Your torrent of water example is specifically addressed in the Core rules, p.85, there's no confusion on this score: "A jet of magical water parts around the maga, and she does not even get wet."

I agree! A canny Magus can use MR in interesting ways.

I believe the being with MR would sink to the bottom, magical water would not enter its lungs or make it wet, though it might be able to swim, as the water does exist, and its normal for someone to swim through it . MR does not dispel existing Magic. (I fail to see how MR would allow walking on water).

Yes! Why? Does the magic boat have MR? Conjured water is real, and has substance and watery reality in game; it behaves like water in every way except for a few caveats. A very powerful or focused Magus could indeed create vast quantities of water, a floating river or small lake, held in unnatural shapes by Rego Aquam, and navigate his putative magical ship on land, atop a cushion of constantly churning water! In style!

Yep, MR can create odd interactions, others can surely attest to this (I'm still fairly new). But p.85-86 do provide a few dozen examples, they might help illustrate the point way better than I can.

Yeah these examples in the corebook are quite handy.

They also deal with the walking-over-magical-water issue, I think. It says: "A jet of magical water parts around the maga, and she does not even get wet." So any magi walking over a magical lake (in case it doesn't penetrate) would just sink without even being wet. Though they may be forced to check for deprivation, as they would find some trouble breathing, even if they know some spell as lungs of the fish: they would be forced to forfeit their Parma for the spell to work.

A short summary would be that if you create something magical (may it be fire, acid or anything damaging) around a target, Parma kicks in. If you create and push something magical to a target, it is resisted. If you push something natural or magical with magic then Parma kicks in, and targeting may or may not be required. But if you use Rego just to hurl something mundane to a target (and that's the trick in Vilano's Sling) then targeting is always required and Parma is avoided.

Anyway if something doesn't fit you, just house-rule it! Just be advised that magic resistance is a can of worms: current magic resistance system does have its oddities, but any change will probably bring its own troubles. For example we house-ruled that magic affecting an item itself can get through parma, mainly to skip enchanted items having a bunch of levels spent in penetration even when they are cosmetical or harmless. So in our Saga Edge of the Razor is not resisted, and Blade of Virulent Flames is resisted. This make magi somehow more vulnerable, but if your magi are worried about mundane weapons then they should get better shield grogs (and a couple of mastered defensive spells can always come handy).

Again thanks for taking the time. =)

And yes a boat could be a magic item, ,thus having magic protection. Or a magus could use their parma magica to protect the boat. And if that where to happen the boat would instantly sink to the bottom then. As the water parts given the smallest incline of force. The force in this case would simply be gravity. As the buoyancy of the water is nullified by the parma magica (it is the revers case of the water yet, magus traveling through a static mas of water). In any case you would not be able to ro with oars with parma magicka anyway. ^^

Micght be a nice defence to have a magicly created moat and no draw bridge, just some boats free to use. And if a intruder uses a boat a magus simply grants the boat parma magica thus sinkig it. ^^Might be worth to explore a bit futher. =)

Thanks again for taking the time.

Enchanted Items don't get any magic protection, and a magus can extend his Parma to protect another person, not specific objects (ArM5 p85)
Your Magic Protection covers items in Range:Personal (including yourTalisman as long as you're touching it), but I'm not aware of any other mechanism for items to gain MR.

And, as I've recently re-learned, your underpants and fancy boots!

less 'from magic origin' and more 'things sustained by magic'. A rock created by Creo Terram momentary ritual would no longer be sustained by magic, it ate the vis and is now 'normal'. A rock created by a moon duration spell is still 'sustained' by magic and disappears at the end of the duration. If you summon a non-ritual magic water, it would disappear when the duration runs out, and is 'magically sourced' for that duration. I have heard some arguments that people would still be damp when the spell is done (because getting wet is a side effect of water, just like catching on fire is a side effect of fire). As far as setting a forest on fire with Creo Ignem, the trees were affected by the spell, and their flames are naturally occuring. if you cast a spell to set a stone room on fire, it would not last beyond the duration (barring circumstances). If you cast a low-penetration Creo Ignem in a forest with magic resistance, they would not catch on fire, and would not last.
It is also worth mentioning that not everything magical has magic resistance. A magically summoned sword doesn't have MR. A magically summoned dog doesn't have MR. A sword enchanted with glowing laser-light-shows doesn't have MR. Things with Magical Might have MR, wizards with Parma Magica have MR, and creatures with faith points have MR.

The rule of thumb to use seems to be: Direct affect is resisted, indirect is not. Then you can hash out the edges between those two from there.