questions about the divine

[Aurelius]

@DIREWOLF75

I fail to see your point about the "small selection of cherrypicked beliefs," unless you want to seriously contend that there were in fact lots of pagans, agnostics and atheists running around, and that the game designers have done them a serious disservice by ignoring the part they played in medieval society.

"pagans" were not uncommon early 13th century.

So how many of them do you suppose you might have found in a typical Christian, Jewish or Muslim community? What would they have been doing? Keeping extremely quiet about their beliefs is my guess.

But thats just a tiny part of it, no the annoying thing is exactly what i said "small selection of cherrypicked beliefs".
Or perhaps your historical knowledge excludes what christians thought about jews or moslems, and vice versa?
Christianity according to islam is polytheist and jews according to christianity are the "damned ones" that killed jesus...
Etc etc...

Instead, it has been neatly picked out and so that it becomes agreeable by todays standards.

It's also explicitly stated in Ars Magica that the other Abrahamic religions, not to mention the Eastern Orthodox Christians and Cathars, also exist within the Dominion.

Completely contrary to their own belief at the time.
ALL of them.

Yes, I know all that. May I say that it's a bit rude to make assumptions about what other people's historical knowledge covers and what it doesn't. If the Christians, Jews and Muslims had seen eye to eye a bit more they might all have spent less time slaughtering each other. What they think about each other doesn't matter from the point of view of the rules about supernatural realms - if each faith is by itself monotheistic its followers can think whatever they like about followers of the others and still gain the powers of the Divine Realm. I made the same point in my last post although you seem to have ignored it:

"The Divine Realm in Ars Magica is riddled with contradictions, e.g. the fact that it encompasses three very divergent religions that pretty much only have monotheism in common, not to mention major schisms within those religions."

For example? As for today's standards, you were the one criticising the Bible based on what is now known about it being "edited and creatively interpreted."

Oh the church just about always knew darn well about the editing over time. They usually did it after lots of arguing after all.

So, who´s beliefs shall create the paradigm and cosmology then?
There isnt any general common-all-over set of beliefs.

Who ever said there was? I don't think such a thing is ever stated or implied in any of the Ars Magica books. Neither is it ever stated or implied that the Bible was completely factually and objectively correct.

Thats why we prefer basing our game on reality and ADDING to it, which means that laws of physics work like they should regardless if none, some or many people think they work differently. This means it doesnt matter if 2 or more religions are calling the others pagans(as christianity called moslems(and vice versa)) because THEY are the only true believers, because in our version they can all be wrong OR right(or even both). But it doesnt cause trouble either way.

And with several players very well versed in history, trying to explain RAW "Mythic Europe" mostly causes a mix of laughter and more or less rude questions about how all neat and tidy, not to forget friendly historical beliefs have suddenly been made...

Friendly in what sense? Mythic Europe still has the Crusades, including the Albigensian Crusade and the Sack of Constantinople, as well as rampant persecution of the Jews. I think the rules are actually much closer to your own view that no one is entirely wrong or entirely right about God and the Divine Realm, as it states in the introduction of Realms of Power: The Divine:

"Ultimately, although the religions of the world contradict each other, the conflict lies within mortals, not within the Heavenly Host."

I think anyone who reads the RAW as meaning that in Ars Magica the monotheistic religions are somehow friendlier than they really were in history is misinterpreting things somewhat.

[DIREWOLF75]

Who ever said there was? I don't think such a thing is ever stated or implied in any of the Ars Magica books. Neither is it ever stated or implied that the Bible was completely factually and objectively correct.

RAW states ONE SINGLE cosmology. So yes, "someone" said there was.

Friendly in what sense?

Streamlined to fit current standards.

I think anyone who reads the RAW as meaning that in Ars Magica the monotheistic religions are somehow friendlier than they really were in history is misinterpreting things somewhat.

You´re avoiding my point. Again. ACTUAL belief at the time simply doesnt allow for RAW cosmology.

Yes, I know all that. May I say that it's a bit rude to make assumptions about what other people's historical knowledge covers and what it doesn't.

Yes it is, but since you seemed to be completely oblivious, it was the obvious assumption.
If you know that then you already know what you asked for.
Meaning you prefer not seeing it then i guess.

What they think about each other doesn't matter from the point of view of the rules about supernatural realms - if each faith is by itself monotheistic its followers can think whatever they like about followers of the others and still gain the powers of the Divine Realm.

Except that goes against the real beliefs of the time.
Streamlining here if you care to notice?

So how many of them do you suppose you might have found in a typical Christian, Jewish or Muslim community?

It DOESNT MATTER. Either you say, cosmology is based on the most common belief in a specific area and follow that precept, which does NOT result in RAW, or you do it another way...
As is, pagans get shafted so badly its almost ridiculous, with just about any and all christian prejudice and belief or propaganda about them being more or less included.
But when moving over to other groups, suddenly the rules for what gets made RAW changes drastically.

What would they have been doing? Keeping extremely quiet about their beliefs is my guess.

Ok, previously you talk about it being rude assuming what people know... And now you AGAIN come around and show yourself as being very lacking in knowledge.
If we stick within European borders, estimates about religion in 1400 still includes quite a bunch of % "pagans", much lamented over by the church. Concentrated but NOT limited to northern and eastern Europe.

In 1200 that figure is extremely likely to be many times higher, as witnessed by the fact the church considered it necessary to send missionaries out.
My own country as example:
The last known missionary in Sweden died(probably) in 1425.
Sweden was "declared christian" during the 13th century...

Read up about Scotland, Ireland and above all else, from the Baltic to the Urals, there you find lots and lots of "pagans".
However, religion was not singularly "abrahamic"(cant say pagan because christianity is no less pagan than any other, depending on what definitions you go by) even close to where the pope resided.

You say you know, but obviously you dont.

[niallchristie]

@DIREWOLF75

If we stick within European borders, estimates about religion in 1400 still includes quite a bunch of % "pagans", much lamented over by the church. Concentrated but NOT limited to northern and eastern Europe.

Though let's be a little careful here. "Pagan" was used by many Christian writers to refer to anyone who wasn't Christian, not just pagans in the traditional sense. At times Muslims and Jews were called pagans too, and likewise followers of any form of Christianity not recognised by the church, like those "pagans" in Provence; or for that matter, anyone who wasn't being sufficiently pious in the writer's eyes...

The actual number of pagans, in the modern sense of the term, was pretty limited within the core of Europe by 1200. How many people there were who paid lip-service to Christianity but didn't really have strong genuine affiliations to the church is of course much harder to determine, but this didn't mean that they were rushing off to the woods to worship Artemis behind the priests' backs. Heck, there wasn't time for that; they had a living to earn...

[Richard_Love]

@DIREWOLF75

I think anyone who reads the RAW as meaning that in Ars Magica the monotheistic religions are somehow friendlier than they really were in history is misinterpreting things somewhat.

You´re avoiding my point. Again. ACTUAL belief at the time simply doesnt allow for RAW cosmology.

Belief in real 1220 Europe doesn't allow for a lot of things that are true in Mythic Europe. For example, no one thought that the supernatural was divided into four realms (magic, faerie, divine, and infernal). I'm not quite sure what your problem is. Mythic Europe is fictional.

Anyway, in real 1220 Europe each of the three religions Christian, Muslim, and Jew thought that they were broadly speaking right and the others were wrong. Of course, there was a continuum of belief, in that I'm sure that some scholars could see that there was some consistency between the three and some scholars would be aware of the shared history of the three. However, a Jewish scholar (for example) wouldn't think that Christians were right about everything, because if he did he would convert.

This seems to be exactly the case that exists in Mythic Europe, except that in Mythic Europe the three are all really worshipping the Divine. All three religions are correct about some things, and all three religions are wrong about some things. But in-character very, very, very few people know that this is the Truth, and even they don't know completely which bits of the three religions are correct and which bits are incorrect. And the RAW doesn't tell the players either.

Amongst, human characters in Mythic Europe, magi are probably the best informed (if they are interested). But the best that they can really tell is that a synagoge, church, and mosque all have Divine auras. A magus can't tell which set of beliefs (if any) is True, and they can't tell which (if any) is the correct path to Heaven.

@DIREWOLF75

If we stick within European borders, estimates about religion in 1400 still includes quite a bunch of % "pagans", much lamented over by the church. Concentrated but NOT limited to northern and eastern Europe.

What exactly do you mean by "pagan"?

Certainly, heaps of people in real 1220 (and 1400) Europe were not what Rome would call Proper Christians, and so were "pagans". But, as far as I'm aware this doesn't mean that they were worshipping Wodin (or Zeus).

If asked, those that Rome called pagans would probably describe themselves as Christians (if they weren't Muslims or Jews). The problem was, from Rome's point of view, that they were either insufficiently pious or were pious enough, but were making doctrinal errors.

The insufficiently pious were probably so, because they were busy being farmers. Of those who were making doctrinal errors, perhaps some were the result of trying to mesh half-remembered ideas of some previous religion with Christianity. But they were as likely to be recent inventions (from the perspective of 1220). Or they were making errors just due to ignorance about what the proper doctrine was.

Sure, in Mythic Europe there are a few pagans floating about (more or less depending on your saga), but proper Wodin worshiping pagans were effectively extinct in real 1220 Europe. Finding Wodin worshipers, in 1220 Europe, would be like finding a regiment of Napoleonic soldiers in 2009 Europe.

[Marko_Markoko]

The problem here is some misperceptions created by neo-pagan groups. I know I tread on thin ice here, so I preapologize for anything I may say that may bother anyone. But from what I have read of Neo-Pagan literature, like Wicca for example, there is this eroneous belief that they are part of a long unbroken tradition that stems back to the middle ages, and they worshipped in secret. Fact is that Wicca and Odin worship were reinvented in the late 19th century. One of my girlfriends, she is into some neo pagan practice (free country, doesn't bother me), and recognizes that it is a modern invention and can name who it was invented by.

[Aurelius]

Well, I never said there weren't still pagans in the Middle Ages, and I was, in fact, perfectly well aware that they were quite widespread in, for example, the Baltic regions where the Teutonic Knights were busy trying to kill them all. I just disagreed with the sweeping generalization that pagans weren't uncommon in the 13th Century. My point is that paganism was a far lesser force in shaping the history and culture of Medieval Europe than Christianity, Judaism and Islam, although it ought to be taken into account that many pagan practices later became Christian ones.

As for one God being the source of the Divine Realm, yes, that's a game invention. So is Hermetic Magic, and I don't hear anyone making a fuss because real hermeticists didn't believe in fifteen magical arts, or because there was never such an organization as the Order of Hermes. As for the worshippers of that one God in Ars Magica, they're either going to think followers of the other faiths are worshipping the Devil, worshipping pagan gods or worshipping the same God in completely the wrong way because their doctrine is heretical. The RAW do, I think by necessity, determine certain things about the cosmology of the game universe. They do not say that the beliefs of Mythic Europeans are any different from their historical counterparts, who frequently seemed to be of the opinion that everyone else was wrong about everything else.

Perhaps in this grand scheme of things the pagans get a bit of a rough deal, as the RAW state their deities were all magical or faerie beings, far less powerful than the God of the Divine Realm. For me this always raises the question as to why, if God is omnipotent, omniscient and infinitely good, everyone wasn't worshipping Him all along instead of wasting time with Zeus, Odin, Ra and all that lot, but I don't think there's any one answer to that.