Many of us would not agree with the world view, but it's "different strokes for different folks."
It sounds like you are on the right track, however, with brushing up on historical research. You may even find many of the good things that came from the church.
The human capacity for evil is everywhere you look, and even the good and faithful have their flaws.
I was once in the ministry, but left because of of politics and hypocrisy. I tried to change that, much like the Dr. Martin Luther who started my denomination. I've since gone on to teaching English composition and Early British Literature (I'm considering adding "Philosophy" to my repertoire). I am no less devoted to my religion or believer in the God of Abraham, but I was jaded by the hypocrisy within the church.
I digress, however, and wish you luck with your Ars Magica games, and your troupe dynamic.
I think I mentioned above, another post on this forum concerning the old Ars adventure "Festival of the Damned." If you use the even older "Church of St. Lazar" adventure to set it up, both are great ways to see the how the Church as an institution, as well as every village, and even your covenant, harbors good and evil. This is not to say the Church as an idea is evil, merely that it is a man made institution that merely tries to realize its perception of God's will on earth while struggling with the fact that it is an organization populated by people just as flawed as anywhere else.
The Church of St. Lazar, is as close to a D&D module as the Ars line ever put out. But it has some really cool elements. If you have ever seen a Cadfael mystery you can grasp the setting. It gives you a chance to battle some nasty supernatural stuff, solve a mystery, and grind your battle axes against something evil in the church.
As a follow up, the Festival of the Damned adventure takes place during Easter a year or so beyond the last storyline, thus giving characters time to forget some of the detailsof the first story or lab time to advance. This tale follows the idea of sin, as it effects everyone individually as affects the community. It realy looks at what it means to sin and commit evil. It is not the high crimes of the Nazi's or even the Inquisition, but it places the struggle bewteen good and evil directly on the PCs. Very few will avoid any temptation.
Even non Christian PCs have an interest in the story's because everyone is subject to evil, and for the action oriented, there is plenty. Who wants to be dragged off to Hades before their time.
These tales could be transplanted to a dualist theocracy, but in the canon setting they provide a really good glimpse at what the Medieval European considered to be at risk in the war between good and evil.
Historically, The church was probably more of a good thing than evil thing. When the church stood closer to its ideals, then it was more good and when the individuals within it were corrupted, it was more evil. For every crusader there many monks, parish priests, bishops and such that did good. Even many of the crusaders were not bad.
As an institution, it is the channel for the divine in christanity even as each shoal is channel for divine in judaism and the various imans are the channel for divine in islam. As an institution it did much to preserve writing, history, culture and knowledge. It helped bring stability and order. It took care of some of the orphans, widows and helpless. It is not perfect but it is generally aligned well wtih dominion and divine. That said, the church is OF the dominion, not the dominion belongs to the church.
The theoology, the code of behavior is towards the divine. The individuals that spread it on the other hand perhaps are not.
An interesting story for the Divine is the order doing good by dealing with an evil that has rooted itself within the church heirarchy. (like all groups, it has trouble with self policing or finding the bad spots before it is much too late.) In this case the divine is their allied against the church potentially or you have players allied with church officials against one of theirs.
As i said elsewhere recently(other forum that is) the christian church was the most active debating society within science in the world for at least half a millenia and without doubt the biggest sponsor of science as well(and quite possibly other things as well but i cant say for sure).
That however i simply cannot agree with. The amount of pre-christian knowledge destroyed by the church is massive, and thats just what we know of through secondary sources.
Oh it certainly preserved alot, but only those of its own picky choosing.
I know there was talk a few years ago about trying to go through the oldest documents in the vatican to see if any MORE "lost books" could be found by checking what a document was before it was used the last time.
I forget the name of the writer but the above came about after one of the more important lost works of one of the ancient Greek smartypants was found in part at least "underneath" a medieval prayer book. Some idiot had scraped one of the most important science works in history and reused the parchment as a prayer book ...
And its not the first time, just the most important such found in such a way so far.
As persons, alot of crusaders can probably be described as "better than average" in comparison to those fighting in other wars. But the crusades certainly gathered alot of scumbags as well, but they were very likely a small minority(but thats all it takes).
And of course, its not like the "crusades" were just a one way thing.
Personal views about religion, good and evil aside, in a conventional Ars Magica game there is just no way magi should be able to go around killing members of the Church without running the risk of extreme consequences. Quite frankly, why the Storyguide would let any players just get away with it is beyond me. If your troupe is changing the setting somewhat that's different, but otherwise the clergy have divine protection, not to mention immense resources and the strong support of the secular authorities when forced to deal with heretics, infidels and pagans. Furthermore, killing priests is very likely to be interpreted as a serious violation of the Code of Hermes, and dealt with accordingly by the Hermetic authorities, many of whom also tend to be pious, practicing Christians. The Order might need to take harsh action to ensure the Church doesn't get the idea it's harbouring dangerous, murderous pagans and call a Crusade against it.
Just from a gaming point of view, the Divine Realm and the Church are indeed big, big, potential threats to magi. If your troupe really want to make such enemies for themselves, there should be a very strong chance of some really heavy retaliation.
Firstly, I'm surprised at the sheer number of believers in this forum. I'm an atheist, but I've got absolutely nothing against the faithful (well, most of them, anyway). In fact, I've gained loads of respect for religion recently, as I started studying St. Thomas Aquinas in depth (and the guy is BRILLIANT!). Guess I'm just used to most rpg players being atheists (which is the case in my country).
Secondly, don't misrepresent the guy. His philosophy is far, far less naïve. He wouldn't be so famous if he wrote that kind of thing. If you don't know how to spell the guy's name, how do you expect to know anything about his philosophy? Please, not all atheists are nihilists. Especially not Nietzsche. In fact, the accused CHRISTIANS of being nihilists... XD
If Good does come from a Diety then "Good is defined by the one who has the strongest will and the greatest force " - um, like a supreme Diety.
I assert that good does not come from a diety. That is the very foundational change i want to make in house rules.
As a human being, not a devout whatever, not as an athiest, but as a human being, you should not do "good" things because some bully is going to burn you forever if you dont. That's not doing good, that's obeying your master. However burning forever if you do good, now that is a story.
I also assert that the church, in this game, is a primary antagonist.
Not just in the "dominion is spreading and magic fading sense". It is also antagonistic toward the fundimental hermetic practice of magic, using inductive reasoning and experimentation to understand the universe.
I think this is a great source of conflict for story and for the game to be interesting. That people believe the good comes from the divine, that is interesting. that the church has some power and can hurt magi, yes that is interesting.
But to have it be the actual cosmology of the universe... borring.
The Divine/Infernal conflict is pointless and not fun as written. Deus ex machina is boring.
Something as simple as disagreeing with original sin and saying all babies are born innocent, is heresy. This makes for great story, if the main character spreads this view.
But only if it is a Tragedy. If it is actual cosmological standpoint of Good, that this heresy is an actual falsehood, and as such a work of evil, and the people that kill the tragic main character were actually doing good... the sence of tragedy is gone.
I studied the N guy in college. I have his books at home, I read them and did rather well in philosophy. I am just bad at spelling
I invoke him because, for me, nihlism is the next logical step if their is no deity. If I had no faith, that is what I would advocate. That's just me.
But anyway, my assertion that the definition of Good and Evil must come from a divine source is actually the influence of Socrates (a pagan). As related by Plato, I am referring to the Socratic dialogue concerning the subject of "What is Pious and Impious?".
What is Good? Why is it Good? What makes Good preferable? Is it universal or up to the individual? Does diety adore that wich is Good because it is good, or is something good because it is cherished by deity?
And I do not consider God to be the big bully that punishes sin. He is the kind father that saves people from damnation. As Paul wrote, it is not what you do or don't do, it is about faith and belief. Some really horrible sinners are going to get into heaven. My personal belief is that everyone gets saved (the apocryphal Gosple of Saint Thomas), but that is not cannon. But, I mean, if you study the Bible (Jewish or Christian), Hell is not at all what cartoons and movies portray. The Old Testement calls it Sheol, the Eternal Grave. Nothingness, non-existance.
God is not about punishment, he is about salvation and hope.
Without a divine component, I would say that these things have no value other than they make you feel good. And perhaps for some people kindess makes them feel lousy, like a sucker. That person may say kindness is a weakness, a poison, an obsticle in the way of progress (or what he defines as good in his life).
Well, in Ars Magica God as the creator and source of all good IS pretty much the actual cosmology of the universe.
Besides, I think your impression of how bad the Church was is a bit exaggerated. Yes, people did get killed for heresy. However, in the canon Ars Magica time period, the clergy did try very hard to get heretics to recant with teaching and persuasion before things got rough.
In your example, denying Original Sin might indeed be very bad according to Church doctrine. So is being a Muslim, a Jew or a Cathar, but they also derive their power from the Dominion. No matter what the Christian church might do to them they are still going to Heaven if they continue to believe in one true God. So, I think, is the heretic who doesn't believe in Original Sin, as long as he also believes in God and isn't a pagan or devil worshipper. No one goes to Hell just because the Church says so.
Huh?
I can most certainly not find any logic in that claim?
Yes i think thats just you...
If the god/s you believe in doesnt exist(unknown to you), does that make your existence meaningless? Does your existence instantly change from meaningful to meaningless if you stop believing?
And btw, its "deity", you eat a diet.
So humans are not allowed to think for themselves? Hey, where did free choice suddenly run off to?
Eeew!
Kindness only counts if done as part of religion then...
Thats beyond stupid. Something good done by an atheist is just as much done as that done by a religious person.
Which i agree with anguard10 isnt a good idea. It is in fact a really bad idea. Which we have never played with and are ever happier for it.
Ah... yes...
So all people before abrahamic religions went to hell automatically? Sorry but thats the capital fallacy of "ONE truth".
Which is something that becomes almost funny considering what is now know about how the bible among others have been "edited" and "creatively interpreted" over the centuries.
And its also a double fallacy, because as i´ve said before, it bases the "Mythic Europe" paradigm on a rather small selection of cherrypicked beliefs. Except when they get edited for convenience of (oh dreadful concept that i really hate to even mention) political correctness based on todays standards... Thats where the RAW cosmology just breaks down in tears.
Great, if that makes for a better game for you and your players. Personally I intend to introduce some serious challenges in my Saga to the notion that God is indeed as Good as He's made out to be, although I haven't actually decided what the truth of the matter is. I think it's best to leave it vague and let the players make up their own minds.
As far as Ars Magica is concerned, it seems that they did, although I agree it's a singularly Christian idea. See ArM5, p.186, paragraph 2 of "The Infernal Realm," and RoP:TI, p.9, "The Infernal Realm and Hell," especially the section pertaining to limbus patrum. As for the one truth thing, even magi generally agree that the Divine Realm is the source of everything else (ArM5, p.182, "The Nature of the Realms."). However if you see that as a flaw in the game setting that makes the game less fun and interesting I won't contradict you. For instance, I think it's perfectly valid to decide for game purposes that the Church is wrong about Original Sin, given that the other monotheistic faiths don't have the same concept, and that only God knows what happens to the souls of unbelievers when they die.
So? What modern scholars think isn't important in this context (though I personally don't disagree with them). The Divine Realm in Ars Magica is riddled with contradictions, e.g. the fact that it encompasses three very divergent religions that pretty much only have monotheism in common, not to mention major schisms within those religions. By comparison, the inconsistencies and fallacies in the Bible, while undeniable, are fairly trifling.
Eh? I think it's objectively correct to say that Roman Catholicism was the major religious doctrine in many of the areas in medieval Europe where Ars Magica sagas might be set, and that most Christians living in western Europe felt that membership of the Roman Church was essential for salvation. It's also explicitly stated in Ars Magica that the other Abrahamic religions, not to mention the Eastern Orthodox Christians and Cathars, also exist within the Dominion. The setting of Ars Magica is based on the beliefs of medieval people, and by the 13th Century I don't think there were that many who weren't Christian, Muslim or Jewish. I fail to see your point about the "small selection of cherrypicked beliefs," unless you want to seriously contend that there were in fact lots of pagans, agnostics and atheists running around, and that the game designers have done them a serious disservice by ignoring the part they played in medieval society.
For example? As for today's standards, you were the one criticising the Bible based on what is now known about it being "edited and creatively interpreted."
Diety My spelling is bad and so is my typing.
As a matter of philosophy, I am not pointing to any specific diety or cosmic power. At this level of consideration, any or all of them will do; Judeo Christian, Buddist, Hindu, The Force, New Age, etceteras.
People are free to choose which path to follow, ased upon what limited understanding they have.
Well, perhaps saying "no value" is a bit extreme. These things have survival value, and thus have been cultivated as a beneficial genetic trait. The alternative to nilhism is determinism. Cold mechanical science. Love is just a chemical reaction, happiness is merely endorphins, morality is nothing more than a genetic trait that has allowed humanity (and their favorite plants & animals) to dominate this planet.
And as I said, this is just me. I am not putting any of this on any of you. These are the conclusions I have drawn.
But thats just a tiny part of it, no the annoying thing is exactly what i said "small selection of cherrypicked beliefs".
Or perhaps your historical knowledge excludes what christians thought about jews or moslems, and vice versa?
Christianity according to islam is polytheist and jews according to christianity are the "damned ones" that killed jesus...
Etc etc...
Instead, it has been neatly picked out and so that it becomes agreeable by todays standards.
Completely contrary to their own belief at the time.
ALL of them.
Oh the church just about always knew darn well about the editing over time. They usually did it after lots of arguing after all.
So, who´s beliefs shall create the paradigm and cosmology then?
There isnt any general common-all-over set of beliefs.
Thats why we prefer basing our game on reality and ADDING to it, which means that laws of physics work like they should regardless if none, some or many people think they work differently. This means it doesnt matter if 2 or more religions are calling the others pagans(as christianity called moslems(and vice versa)) because THEY are the only true believers, because in our version they can all be wrong OR right(or even both). But it doesnt cause trouble either way.
And with several players very well versed in history, trying to explain RAW "Mythic Europe" mostly causes a mix of laughter and more or less rude questions about how all neat and tidy, not to forget friendly historical beliefs have suddenly been made...
Like how someone on the forum earlier asked about "flat earth"... Which is a 19th century myth totally made up by an author writing a book about Columbus and trying to glorify him some extra by contrasting his "genious" against the silly buggars who were convinced the earth was flat.
Something which in reality never happened.
The only historical place you actually find talk about a "flat earth" is metaphorically and as part of philosophy.
Why should i care about any -ism´s at all and not just get on with my life instead? And perhaps let those who gain from them determine if any actions of mine has any value?
My life doesnt change in value or meaning wether i or someone else believes something specific, nor does it change thusly wether such belief is actually true or not.
No, since what you said is that only the divine can define good and evil, humans doesnt have a choice. You´re perfectly welcome to show me any place anything divine has defined good and evil and not human. Until that happens all you have are human definitions to choose from. Which by your definition cant be correct definitions as such can only come from a divine source.
Hard to choose what you dont know.
Of course. And as a footnote i might add that im not atheist, as is often believed.
Having been employed as a translator and proofreader, im usually not, even when typing "lazy/low quality" in a place like this.
Practise until you can type without looking at neither the keyboard or screen, and still correct most mistakes "as you go", as i did with most of this sentence, helps alot. 8)
Sure, let yourself be defined by others, or you can define your self for yourself. There is a choice there too. But whose definition of value is correct? Your's? The ones who benefit? Or your enemies? If all humans are equal and on the same plane, whose ideas are more correct? How do you determine?
Well, I should point out that the Socratic dialogue concerning "What is Pious and Impious" doesn't offer a resolution or a definite answer. The argument goes around and around in circles, just like this one
If there is no deity, then all we have is human definition. We become God, and what we decide is correct by default. But then what happens when two conflicting views oppose each other? How does one determine which is correct, which is more moral? Without the component of a supreme power, it all becomes a matter of preference. What makes the most number of people the happiest, what makes the majority feel good about themselves.
Without deity, there is no good or evil except that which we define for ourselves.
But I believe that there is a divine power, that it resonates within all sentient souls, and it is that which guides us in our quest in trying to understand good and evil.
Most people are not. Understand that I am trying to make my definition loose enough to encompass a wide number of theologies and philosophies. However you define it; The Force, Cosmic Consciousness, Yahweh, Omnipotent Bob, Wicca, the Olympian Pantheon; my most basic argument is that there is some sort of higher power that humanity is attuned to and enables them to have realization beyond their animal drives and perceptions, a plane of higher thought that can grapple with concepts such as ethics and morality beyond a level of simply "what makes you feel good".
Either that, or things such as Faith & Morality are nothing more that genetic attributes. I am Christian because my genes determined I would be spiritual, and Christianity is the religion most prevelant in my culture (I was raised Greek Orthodox, and I calculate Easter differently).
Good advice, thanx
I have improved considerably over the years. I now type all of my gaming material and such (I used to write everything out longhand with pen and paper, my penmenship is also attrocious, but the constant practice helped me improve).
I do have another handicap though. Some of my buttons are quirky and I am missing the "b" (which is why B is so often dropped from the words I write).
Practice, practice, and more practice.
This thing called a conscience, intuition of good/evil, soul whatever... Instead of coming from the Divine, it is my world view that it is something in all of us (minus psychopaths) and we name it Divine. We name it a god, a force, a whatever that helps us strive for it and foster it.
It is this fundamental distinction in cosmology that I'm changing for my troupe. That which fosters this essence of humanity and cherishes it, is Divine. That which crushes it, twists it on itself, and causes despair, is Infernal.
My spelling is bad and so is my typing.