Questions on Wizard's Boost (and similar)

Hello everyone

I have some questions in relation to Vim spells that target other spells; as an example I will primarily use the spell Wizard's Boost.
The SG in our saga is not very fond of Vim Metamagic spells, so we haven't used them much. I'm trying to provoke him to advance those spells in our game, and thus I would like a few clarifications.
Also I've finally taken the time to read the awesome thread about the advancement of Ranulf, by Erik Tyrrell (https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/ranulf-from-moh-now-150-years-post-apprentice/5637/1), and another few questions arose from reading this. I'll ask the questions in this thread though, so as to not disturb the creative works of all those, that actually follow everything Ranulf is doing with his Vim spells :smiley:

My first question is in relation to timing and targeting.
The spell text of Wizard's Boost reads:

Is I read it, this suggests that the targeted spell and the Wizard's Boost should be cast simultaneously.
Does this mean, that the Wizard's Boost must be fast casted in order for a Magus to target his own spells?
Thus far, I have only used the spell to boost the spells of my Sodales, but rereading the Spell Mastery special ability: Rebuttal HoH Societas got me confused:

While it is clear that Maintaining the Demanding Spell is designed to target your own spells, i missed out on the fact that Wizard's Boost was to. Does this mean that it cannot boost the spells of other casters?

In case I'm confusing everyone with my ramblings, please note that I'm currently talking about the very basic application of the spell.
In the thread about Ranulf, he uses a plethora of Vim spells to alter his PoF. This advanced use of Rego/Muto Vim spells has confused me a bit, maybe because i don't own the Magi of Hermes book Ranulf was originally printed in - maybe because I'm just not very bright :wink:
Anyway, Ranulf uses spells to affect spells, to affect spells, while working with seconday triggers etc.
This is a very advanced way of using Vim metamagic, (which my SG would not approve of) but if I was to merely put a Wizard's Boost spell into my Talisman, how could i have it affect my spells? Could i make the trigger part of the casting ritual of my PoF for instance? Or should my talisman have an Intellego Vim spell to detect my casting of the spell and through that; trigger the Wizard's Boost automatically?

My second question is in relation to the extra 5 levels of the Wizard's Boost spell
First of all Wizard's Boost reads:

My storyguide reads this as being a random boost of the spell power for him to determine, variable with each casting of the spell. In this forum, however, is seems that the 5 extra levels could safely be considered an added magnitude of damage (typically +5) for spells that mainly cause damage. But what happens if Wizard's Boost is applied to a spell like the Teeth of the Earth Mother (requireing a pretty high level MuVi, i know). Would the number of pillars be increased from 20 to 25? Or would they increase from 12 to 15 feet, and a diameter of 5 paces rather than 3 - possibly making it harder to effectively trap someone? Would they be 24 inches thich at the base, rather than 18 - and would this modify the ease factor for climbing them since the top of the pillars won't break as easily but the stem is harder to reach aorund? Or is the damage for skewering merely increase from +25 damage, to +30? I guess you get my point by know...
And would the effect of the Wizard's Boost spell on a given spell be the same with each application of the targeted spell, or would it vary?

My third question is in relation to the effective levels of a few Muto Vim spells
Wizard's Boost can affect spells of a level less than that of the Wizard's Boost, while Wizard's Reach can target spells of a level only up to one magnitude lower than that of the Wizard's Reach spell. The obvoius difference between 'equal to level' and 'equal to level -5' is a result of the Touch and Voice range variations. At first i though the two spells were almost identical in design, but now I'm not sure. The timing part in Wizard's Boost 'as another spell is cast' is not included in the Wizard's Reach, but is this for a reason? And does it have anything to do with why is Wizard's Reach needs range Voice? Or is range Voice just included for pracitcal reasons (with the argument, that the spell range is increased) so that Boost and Reach works on the same adjusted level, given that the spell targeted by the Wizard's Boost cannot exceed the level of the Wizard's Boost anyway?
Also i find it odd that Wizard's reach can affect spells of 'one magnitude lower than Wizard's Reach', rather than spells that are 'more than one magnitude lower than Wizard's Reach', which the guidelines suggest.
And could you give me some pointers about the other versions of the spell, as hinted in the Wizard's Boost discription? I have seen spell designs of Wizard's Endurance and Wizard's Expansion for increased duration and target, but do they follow the design of Wizard's Boost - that is, with range touch? Also, Increasing range and duration seems quite liniear, but what happens when increasing target from Individual to Part? This doesn't always make sense does it? Would it be possible for me to design a Wizard's Expansion that increased target Individual to target Group, by lowering the maximum level of the targeted spell by another magnitude? Or would this be a violation of the 'no more than one of this type of spell can affect any one spell' that i assume applies for all of the above 4 spells (range, duration, target and power)? And would it not mess to much with the idea of multicasting, and make a spell like the Sorcerer's Fork even less interesting if this was possible?

My fourth, and final, question is specifically to a power Ranulf +105 has instilled in his Talisman
The spell/power in question is:

Isn't this just a way to get around the fact the you cannot Wizard's Boost more than 5 levels? Don't get me wrong, I'm not implying that Erik (or Ranulf) is breaking the rules here, I'm simply asking whether this can be used as a universal guideline to empower spells with their own art. You might not always be able to find a reasonable way of intensifying your damaging spells, but if you can - why bother with learning Vim spells for Boosting? This spell only works on a specific other spell, where Wizard's Boost can target any Ignem spell, but that seems like a minor issue given that Ranulf (and other characters of similar design) basically only has one offensive spell anyway - and this one adds 7 magnitudes, rather than just 1!
And what happens to the penetration total ? Do spells that are Boosted get lowered penetration based on their new power level? And if now, does the Wizard's Boost spell have to penetrate the target of the targeted spell as well then?
And how about the spell listed above then? Ranulf has added +47 levels of Penetration, so I'm assuming that this spell has to penetrate the victim, as well as the targeted PoF right?


Sorry about this landslide of questions. I hope that I, despite the confusion, have managed to make my questions understandable to some of you out there and I'm looking forward to you comments and answers :stuck_out_tongue:

Hello Lasse

Would I ever love to know! Actually, it appears that 'Instant' spells last up to one (1) round, during which you can then cast your spell to be modified.

Notice that Wizard's Boost has a Range of Touch, thus it can only affect your own spells (according to the MuVi guideline boxed text).

Ranulf is occasionally very creative in his use of metamagics.

That box on the MuVi guidelines I mentioned above, on page 159? Go read it, then read it again. It has a lot of very valuable information. Amongst these, that MuVi effects in items (including talismans) can only affect effects invested into the item itself. The only exception (which I must assume Ranulf uses) involves the Major Hermetic Mystery Virtue of Consumate Talisman (TMRE p.90). So far I have never had a character with access to this virtue, so I shall not comment upon it.

Since Hermetic Magic is usually magc-as-a-science, I'd rather assume that the result would be up to the caster.
Also please not that it does not always make sense to boost a spell via Wizard's Boost - your own example of TotEM being one example.

As far as I can tell, it's all because of range - the exra timing details are relevant because one spell can be cast only on your own spells, while this is not so for the other.

pretty sure that's an editoral oversight

Nope, why would it?

Guidelines, box on p. 159. It's much harder to use MuVi to change a spell by 2 magnitudes

I'm actually rather curious why the Sorceror's Fork is not limited to spells of a specific form, like most of the other MuVi spells.

Actually that one's rather pushing the envolope, isn't it just.
Fairly sure my usual SG wouldn't let it fly anyway.

Serf's Parma... but I believe Muto Vim is the exception allowing you to cast two spells without having to fast-cast. I can't remember where I saw that...

you do understand one of my main purposes was to spur discussions about the little corners of the rules that I was exploring.

The text box on p 159 of the main rules says""...you must make an int + concentration roll of 9+ if you are casting both spells...this is slightly easier than normal" that statement doesn't forthrightly say that it doesn't need to be fast casted but I believe that this was the intention. Fast casting had never been (to my recollection) required in previous editions and no subsequent fifth edition work says that they do.

wizard's boost is range touch once again from the p159 text box "Touch range is sufficent to affect your own spells but voice range at least is needed to affect another magus' casting".

then he or she is clearly a no fun stick in the mud :wink:

No, that wouldn't be possible. The muto vim guideline box on page 159 really is a plethora of restrictions meant to curb the excesses of previous editions (particularly third edition, muto vim was absurd in third edition). It says: "You may only put a muto vim effect into an item if it is to work with another affect of that item. All muto vim effects require some tailoring to the specific use and a magical item effect can not be so tailored"

That, as you read, is specifically up to the storyguide. If I were given the unenviable job of resolving all rules issues I'd let the player decide what the extra magnitude would (subject naturally to the approval of the storyguide) do thereby giving control to the character in game and providing I suspect a more fun experience

The guidelines say that if you increase the base spell more than one magnitude it is a total change, in fact if you do more than two magnitudes (ie more than individual to group) you need a perdo or creo requisite to supply or destroy the additional power. So yes you can do it but the target spell has to be less than half of base level +1 magnitude.

It isn't vim at all. It's a muto ignem spell. If I were going to describe it as getting around anything I'd describe it as getting around the fat that items can not cast muto vim spells on anything other than effects in the same item (Hugh in Magi of Hermes has a a MuVi spell in his talisman) (An exception to this rule is if you initiate into the mystery virtue of the consummate talisman from Mysteries Revised edition you can get muto vim spells in your talisman to function on your cast spells)

This is akin to casting a MuAn spell such as Steed of Vengeance (p.119)on a horse that you've created with [i]The Wizard's Mount/i. Comparing it to a muto vim spell isn't an undertaking devoid of ambiguity. The muto ignem guidelines that I used are the core book guidelines and the base spell is 10th magnitude prior to additions for castings per day and penetration. A muto vim spell that has a base level more than twice the level of the target spell would to do some pretty impressive things as well.

Certainly with the muto ignem spell both the pillum of fire and Pilums of Unmatched Heat need to penetrate (it's the same sort of situation as conjuring a sword and then casting edge of the razor on it).

For Muto vim the issue is regrettably less clear. Here's a relevant quote from the errata document:

I believe that this shows that the muto vim spell is targeting the casting of the target spell, not the final product. As a result, the target spell which has been modified by a Muto Vim spell does not have its penetration altered. (There's clearly room for debate but my hunch is that my opinion would emerge unaltered from most discussions.)

In any case, I'm very pleased to see someone enjoying the Ranulf thread. Thank you

Unfortunatly, since the box on p. 159 is about MuVi and MtDS is a ReVi spell, this can be argued to be irrelevant.
It has been suggested to D. Chart to apply this to all Vim spells, but no reaction yet.

However, we note that the guideline used is the second guideline from the top in the ReVi box on p. 161 - which refers specifically to spells you've cast yourself.
The guideline to sustain (or supress) a spell cast by another person involves dividing by 2

Going back to the original open call the request was for the novel. I felt it was my duty to present the non-obvious. (Of course since then I'm consciously choosing to try new things because i find them fun. Clearly there were more reasonable ways to go than All Beasts are made from Plants)

Yes it's pushing the envelope. I'm doing that on purpose you know. I really have asked for feedback on that one in the Ranulf thread, even dating back to last July. I would very much like to hear if a good case could be made against it.

Thanks for the quick and relevant feedback Tellus (which is in Italic below).

"Would I ever love to know! Actually, it appears that 'Instant' spells last up to one (1) round, during which you can then cast your spell to be modified."
Then I'll try casting my Wizard's Boost first, and following up with my offensive spell in the next round - and see what my SG says to that :slight_smile:

"Notice that Wizard's Boost has a Range of Touch, thus it can only affect your own spells (according to the MuVi guideline boxed text)."
Obviously, thanks. Reading the spells i didn't realize from the discriptions, which ones were targeting what - but i guess the guidelines makes it crystal clear. I'll be sure to invent a Wizard's Reach version with touch range to affect my own spells then.

"Ranulf is occasionally very creative in his use of metamagics."
He should be, he is an experimental character :smiley:

"That box on the MuVi guidelines I mentioned above, on page 159? Go read it, then read it again. It has a lot of very valuable information. Amongst these, that MuVi effects in items (including talismans) can only affect effects invested into the item itself. The only exception (which I must assume Ranulf uses) involves the Major Hermetic Mystery Virtue of Consumate Talisman (TMRE p.90). So far I have never had a character with access to this virtue, so I shall not comment upon it."
True. I've read and understood that section, contrary to what my questions apparently suggest. For some reason this only seems to go for MutoVim spells, and not RegoVim, PerdoVim etc. though... but maybe it is supposed to apply for all techniques.
My question remains though. Say I put a Wizard's Boost power into my Talisman, along with a PoF. How will i make the Boost affect the PoF? Do i simply trigger the Boost in round 1, and then trigger the PoF in the following round?

"Since Hermetic Magic is usually magc-as-a-science, I'd rather assume that the result would be up to the caster. Also please not that it does not always make sense to boost a spell via Wizard's Boost - your own example of TotEM being one example."
Agreed.

"As far as I can tell, it's all because of range - the exra timing details are relevant because one spell can be cast only on your own spells, while this is not so for the other."
"Pretty sure that's an editoral oversight"
Ok, thanks for clearing that up :slight_smile:

"Nope, why would it?"
So Wizard's Expansion is a spell with very limited use? Raising target by one category rarely makes sense, especially because of target Part. You could find some uses for changing target Room to target Structure, i guess... Could this spell then be used to to add a +1 magnitude for added Size instead? So that one could target a subject of greater size, or an object with ten times the mass for example.

"Guidelines, box on p. 159. It's much harder to use MuVi to change a spell by 2 magnitudes"
Yeah, sorry. Don't know how i missed that.

"I'm actually rather curious why the Sorceror's Fork is not limited to spells of a specific form, like most of the other MuVi spells."
Yes, odd. But since it rarely appears in Grimoires, let's just leave it at that :stuck_out_tongue:

"Actually that one's rather pushing the envolope, isn't it just. Fairly sure my usual SG wouldn't let it fly anyway."
I believe it is. I wouldn't allow it anyway.
But what actually happens with penetration when applying Metamagic? Does the Metamagic spell change the penetation of the spell in question, by effectively increasing (or decreasing) the level of the spell, so that penetration for that spell is reduced (or improved)? With mechanics being similar to the use of the Flexible Formulaic Magic Virtue.
Or if the penetration of the targeted spell remains unaltered, could we then assume that the Metamagic spell has not actually 'changed' the targeted spell, but is instead actively 'changing' it - so that the Metamagic spell will have to penetrate as well, as a separate spell?
And if there is not straight answer in Core, how do you handle this in your saga?

Thanks alot for your reply's Erik!
Most of the obvious issues have already been covered by Tellus, but I'm happy to see people agree :slight_smile:

You seem to agree on the extra 5 levels of power, as i prefer it as both player and SG. Furthermore, your arguments for doing so are good.

I guess you're right, it does seem like that was the intention. Thanks. I'll ask SG-buzzkill :stuck_out_tongue:

Like Tellus you refer to the rules about MuVi in items only being able to target other power invested in that item, but what's your take on it in relation to what you said about Fast casting in the above? Will the item have to Fast cast then in order to cast Wizard's Boost on 'it's own' PoF?

I fully realize that Ranulf is deliberately pushing some limits, and I love that. Especially the experimental nature of the Ranulf +X thread. In order to make some official statements and /or counterarguments I'll need to get my around the basics first :smiley: Your arguments about Pilums of Unmatched Fires are good from a rules-wise perspective. I doesn't sit well with me just yet though... But then again, I'm not at all used to Metamagic or spell-altering spells in general, because our main SG has been against it, so it might grow on me.

I have been working on a Terram specialist for some time now (we only play every 2 months so nothing intese, though) and I've got a build ready, with a Dogma, some character defining quotes and some spell designs i like. One of the design criterias for him was that he would use Terram for nearly everything; seeing the other arts - and especially the other 3 elements - as being inferior to Terram. Furthermore, he wanted to prove it through his actions and applications of magic, and would constantly preach this to his Sodales. Furthermore, his offensive capabilities would be centered around a mastered version of The Crystal Dart.
So in design and purpose he shared many basic ideas with those of Ranulf, though he is in no way as detailed yet. Thus reading about Ranulf in this forum last week (for the first time, since i sadly don't own Magi of Hermes), was a source of great inspiration. We have never played with Magi more than 10 years out of apprenticeship (because of changing systems, sagas, SG's and players), so it was nice to see you share not only his design, but also your reasoning along the way.

If you suddently recall where you saw it, don't hesitate to get back to me. This would be much appriciated!

If he complains too much, consider fast-cast mastering all of your MuVi spells.

I didn't mean to imply that you necessarily haden't understood it - but I know for a fact I'd read the entre box atleast 3 times before I was reasonably sure I had it all.

To my mind, you should be able to add a trigger condition, arguing that it is either an Enviromental Trigger or a Linked Trigger (either is +3, so no matter) such that your boost is activated by the activation of the PoF. This may be in dispute unfortunatly.

I would argue that indeed it could!
Or you could move Room up to Structure - indeed you could even use this and it's inverse to 'fake' aspects of Flexible Formulaic Magic, and learn your spells with T: Part, why not?

Ah, now there's an interesting question. I know of no answer in the core or otherwise, so in the sagas I play in, we went back to the more case of Muto'ed objects penetrating.
Now, if you use muto to change a swordblade (in a relevant way), it must penetrate when used against a target with magic resistence. This is the idea behind Blunting the Iron's Bite (MoH, p. 50). So we've agreed that you'd use the lower penetration (of the original spell and the MuVi spell).
This opens up for sort of 'pink dot defence' on spells but is less of a problem because A) You have to change the spell in a 'significant way' and more importantly B) If the other caster isn't cooperating, you must beat his penetration with your own anyway.

A case can be made against B) for a magus who'se parma is somehow weak against the original effect (eg Ignem) but strong against Vim (perhaps even with a magic resistance mastery?). This eventuality has yet to crop up, so we've declared it a non-problem for now.

The rules, as far as I remember, never clearly state how you cast a MuVi spell and another spell to modify the second, but they are rather clear in saying it is possible: most MuVi spells are written with a Range: Touch, which can only affect spells YOU cast, not spells someone else is casting (of course they can be reinvented with Range: Voice), for one; then there is the line in the MuVi guideline about needing an Int + Concentration roll of 9+...

To what has already been said here I can add one point of rules, taken from the Ring Duration guideline, p.112:
"The casting of a non-ritual spell may be extended to allow the drawing of a large ring. However, the caster must make an Int + Concentration roll of 6+ every round to maintain concentration on the spell...".
And the Concentration rules on p.82 also have a line for "casting another spell", which translates into a Int+Concentration roll for casting a spell while casting another spell, normally requiring a 15+ roll, but which the MuVi guideline specifically reduce to 9+ for metamagic spells.

Putting all of this together, I would say that it is possible to

  1. extend the casting of a spell over two (or more) rounds and
  2. cast another spell in the second round, while the first is still being cast, with an Int+Concentration roll of 15+ (9+ for a metamagic spell)

So on the first round you cast the spell you want to modify, but announce that you are extending the casting, so it does not take effect yet; and on the second round you cast the MuVi spell and make an Int+Concentration roll of 9+; assuming you succeed, you have succeeded in casting the first spell, modified by your MuVi one; If you fail the concentration roll, you lose both spells.

You can always invent a version that has a specific effect; for instance, a Wizard's Boost (Ignem) that specifically boosts the damage of the flames of an Ignem spell by +5, but it would probably have no effect on a spell that creates light, or most InVi, MuVi, PeVi and ReVi spells. But yes, otherwise, it's for the ST to determine; as a ST I would normally choose whatever makes the spell more effective within the player's intent (unless said player is due for a comeuppance, perhaps for egregious abuse of the Pink Dot loophole); but it could be something different for each casting.
As an interesting point, the rules do not forbid casting a MuVi spell spontaneously, although they do forbid casting it on a spontaneous spell; so if you are good enough to do so, you could say that you are casting a specific version with the specific effect you intend, rather than leaving it for the ST.

Wizard's Reach and Wizard's Boost use the same guideline, so Wizard's Reach is in fact a more specific version of Wizard's Boost, with a different Range. That is probably why its description is more succinct, it would only repeat what has already been said. The Voice Range is only there to make it possible to affect spells cast by other magi, you can invent a Wizard's Reach version with Touch Range.
And You can invent versions of Wizard's Boost with different parameters. Range Voice or Sight are the most obvious, and possibly Target : Group to affect multicast spells (yes, it should work just fine). So your Wizard's Endurance and Wizard's Expansion can have Range Touch, or Voice, or whichever other parameters you want.

Increasing target from Individual to Part is usually not possible, or has no effect, but for some specific spells it could be hilarious: thing of Curse of Circe, which change a person into a pig, add the MuVi part, and maybe only the head is changed ? Still, Wizard's Expansion is more useful in increasing spells from Room to Structure, or adding a +1 Size to the target.

As for increasing the target from Individual to Group, that is going from a significant change (limited to +1 magnitude) to a total change (limited to +2 magnitudes), a different MuVi guideline, so it would only affect a spell up to half the (level +1 magnitude) of the MuVi spell, adjusted for the MuVi's spell parameter as usual. And that's difficult enough that for most magi it is effectively impossible for decent spells, and thus does not make multi-casting and Sorcerer's Fork less attractive.

Well, it's MuIg, so it follows different rules, and personally I think it very badly needs a Creo requisite since it adds a lot of power. And it seems to imply that the fire of PoF is created at Touch range, rather than this being only a cosmetic effect, which would mean it would burn the caster if it penetrates his Parma. As a ST I would ask for Voice Range.

That said, the reason Wizard's Boost is limited to 5 levels is that it uses a "significantly change a spell" MuVi guideline. The "totally change a spell" MuVi guideline allows for greater shifts, possibly with a Creo or Perdo requisite. Here is how I would use the "totally change" guideline:

Wizard's Extra Boost (Form), R:Touch, D:Momentary, T:Ind, Mu(Cr)Vi General Level (Example: Level 45)
You cast this spell as another spell of level less than half the (level - 1 magnitude) (Example: Level 20) of this spell is cast. The effect of the other spell increases 15 levels in power, but not past the (level - 1 magnitude) (Example: Level 40) of the Wizard's Extra Boost. The level of the extra 15 levels of power are for the ST to determine. //Add the rest of the Wizard's Boost text, you get the idea//
(Base Effect, +1 Touch, +1 Creo Requisite)

You can create a version of this spell to change a Touch spell to Arcane Range, or Momentary to Moon Duration, one with Individual Target to Structure or Group x 10, in addition to the more mundane +15 damage on a PoF. You can add more extra magnitudes for a greater increase in power, but you'll very soon hit the point where you'd need a ritual MuVi spell to affect your basic spell, which would make the timing impractical; and anyway only a very focused specialist would find it easier to use such spells rather than inventing the spells he wants to modify with a higher level to begin with.

If you look carefully, you'll notice that Ranulf could have invented a CrIg spell, or invested an effect, doing +35 damage that would have been lower level. Of course, it's better to add +35 on top of an existing +25 than separately, since the target only soaks it once. On the other hand, it means the target only needs to resist (or even counterspell) the original spell, since the extra damage only happens if the fire is created in the first place: no Ignem to modify, no extra Oomph. Also, the timing is even more difficult than a MuVi spell: since you are not affecting your spell but the effect of your spell, you really need to cast the first spell, let it take effect, then cast the modifying spell while the effect is still active, which pretty much takes a linked trigger...

I would say a Boosted spell as the lower of the original spell and the MuVi spell penetrations, but I don't think it has ever been explicitly stated; others might say it uses only the original spell's penetration. In Ranulf's case, the PoF is first resisted as the original spell, since the extra effect is dependent on the first PoF actually happening, then the extra effect is resisted separately if the first Penetrated.

I believe that a good argument can be made for Muto Vim spells not needing to penetrate. In fact I made the argument above, I'll repost it here.
from the errata :

I believe that this shows that the muto vim spell is targeting the casting of the target spell, not the final product. As a result, the target spell which has been modified by a Muto Vim spell does not have its penetration altered. Otherwise, for a spell of greater than duration momentary, you're having a spell that is no longer active needing to penetrate a target that it isn't getting anyplace near.

You're absolutely right! :slight_smile:
I shall bring this along to my troupes at the earliest convenience :slight_smile:

Thanks for you answer Halancar, much appreciated!

With your help everyone, I think we have covered a great deal about Metamagic spells that at least i wasn't sure of: how to target spell's to change, how to design them and how to cast them. And when casting them, we have also discussed how to cast spells in the right order, with the right timing, on the right type of target, using an appropriate Concentration roll and how to deal with penetration. I'm now much more confident bringing Metamagic into our game on a bigger scale (so far we have only boosted each other's DEO spells).

As several of us has pointed out, Wizard's Expansion has some uses, going from room to structure or increasing the target range of the spell by +1. The best use by far, though would be Halancar's example with Curse of Circe :smiley: Making Wizard's Expansion more powerful, is sufficiently difficult to not make Multicasting or Sorcerer's Fork less attractive. With your references to the guidelines, and Halancar's sample spell 'Wizard's Extra Boost' we see that it is very possible to do this however. Combining this with the winning arguments on MuVi penetration by Erik, we get the option to extra boost a spell of very low level - making good use of the high penetration (see spell design below).

But even with Halancar's very specific example, I have a few questions to the spell design. I was wondering whether the '... but not past the...' part should be based on the guideline using half the spell level as well? If not, we might as well leave it out of this spell, right? Also, you boosted the spell by three magnitudes, probably in order to show the part about the Creo requisite. This requisite adds a magnitude to the spell level, but apart from that - it is no more 'expensive' to boost three levels than two, right? And as such, one could put an extra magnitude of boosting in there for free (for a total of +4 magnitudes). IThe use is limited as Year Duration and Boundary Target requires Rituals, but since it's free it might still make sense. Increasing range from personal to arcane connection could become useful, and we could use as many magnitudes as we want to increase the Size modifier of the spell or add extra magnitudes of power. Am I completely missing something very crucial here or do the guidelines need a cap, or a +1 magnitude per extra magnitude of power increase to keep us from going ballistic with this?

As mentioned above, my 'under construction' Terram Magus will focus on The Crystal Dart, which is level 10. He could choose to make the spell more dangerous through MuVi, by designing a spell of Wizard's Extra Boost specifically made to increase its damage to +20:

Wizard's Extra Boost (Terram), R:Touch, D:Momentary, T:Ind, MuVi Level 21
You cast this spell as another spell of level less than half the level of this spell is cast. The effect of the other spell increases 10 levels in power, but not past the level of the Wizard's Extra Boost.
(Base Effect, +1 Touch)

Is it to speculative (or even wrong) to design the spell with an extra +1 level, rather than adding an extra magnitude? I just figured that since i probably wouldn't be able to trade for a copy of such a spell, i would have to invent it myself - so why not tailor it to suit the specific needs?
Thus I get a +20 damage Crystal Dart with a penetration total of +10 compared to altering the actual Crystal Dart spell with an extra two magnitudes for damage (assuming that the storyguide would even allow it, since this is a Legacy spell). This sounds promising. On the other hand I have to cast two spells, which means spending two rounds - so i can only get half as many Darts off. Also, casting two spells increases the risk of loosing fatigue, more than doubles the risk of botching (since the Crystal Dart is mastered) and requires me to make a Concentration roll (which might also fail or botch). It also requires planning and timing, meaning that it is less flexible in combat, and is suffering from delay. Hmmm... I like the idea of trying the Metamagic way, but maybe I'm just as well of saving those MuVi spell levels and Vim score xp - and spending them on Muto, Rego, Terram, Penetration and Spell Mastery as usual :slight_smile:

As pointed out in the above, spontaneous cast Metamagic would add a great deal of flexibility to your spellcasting. Halving all your totals and spending fatigue makes it a little less attractive for combat, but still and option if you are a Vim specialist. And it is definitely something to consider when sponting spells using your low arts in situations where fatigue isn't that big of a deal. One suddenly feels the urge to design a magus with Metamagic as a Magical Focus :stuck_out_tongue:

This also takes us back to my question about Fast Casting Metamagic spells. The biggest drawback of the above 'Extra boost + Crystal Dart'-strategy is the extra time it takes to cast the spells. But if one Mastered the Extra Boost spell for Fast Casting, one might pull off both spells in a single round. This does nothing to lower the risks of loosing fatigue or botching though. Since you are reacting to something you planned yourself, how would you handle the Ease Factor for the Fast Casting Speed?

Sorry for bumping this thread, but I've gotten so many great answers to my previous questions in this thread, that I'm going to try repeating my questions :slight_smile:
My last post was a lengthy one about a bit of everything, so I'll try to draw out the most important questions and be specific:

  1. The MuVi guidelines are open-ended in terms of adding more than two magnitudes. Does this mean that we could add as many magnitudes as we want? And since there is no adjustment for the number of magnitudes added, do we get free magnitudes once we have passed +3? Note that the '... but not past the level of the Wizard's boost' does put some kind of cap on this.

  2. We have discussed whether fast casting the Metamagic spells - to target your own spells - was the way to go. But since you are reacting to something you planned yourself, how would you handle the Ease Factor for the Fast Casting Speed in such a case? Would it automatically succeed (only for metamagic spells probably, otherwise this could be abused)? Or could you fail your timing on a low roll?

Thanks

Hmmm, once you include a Cr or Pe req. for changing the target spell a lot, the cap the Mu(req)Vi spell puts on the boost together should impose sufficient limits. I think it would be a rare enough occurrence so I'm not afraid of unbalancing the system.
Although I'd consider ruling that spells cannot be boosted up to being Rituals - for whatever reason that takes them to this level.

I like the idea of having the risk of actually failing. It takes little effort to reach Mastery 1 for the Metamagic, only 1 season of practice. IMHO that's too little to get automatic success in boosting spells. which would otherwise have talen two rounds to pull off.
The Ease Factor may be low, since you are reacting to something you know very well wheh is goign to happen.
If you need to cast metamagic first and then the spell to be boosted afterwards, the Initiative at which you want the boosted spell to fall is the Ease Factor you need to beat with the Metamagic.

So using the spell Halancar designed as an example earlier in this thread, one could design this improved version:

Wizard's Extra Ultra Boost (Form), R:Touch, D:Momentary, T:Ind, Mu(Cr)Vi General Level (Example: Level 47)
You cast this spell as another spell of level less than half the (level - 1 magnitude) of this spell is cast. The effect of the other spell increases 11 magnitudes in power, but not past the (level - 1 magnitude) of the Wizard's Extra Boost. The level of the extra levels of power are for the ST to determine.
(Base Effect, +1 Touch, +1 Creo Requisite)

The above spell is designed to affect spells of a certain form, of up to level 20; increasing the effective level to a maximum of 40. Assuming that we translate '5 levels of added power' to being 1 magnitude, this means that a first level spell could be increased 11 magnitudes before it is capped by level 40.

The spell level is 45 in order to avoid reaching Ritual level requirements. If invested in an item as a power, however, we could achieve much higher levels (with the spells only being able to target other spells/powers in that very item, though) and thus even more magnitudes. I realize that you would rarely need to boost duration or range by more than a few steps, but increasing the size modifier or power of a spell by 50 levels or more is extremely usefull. I realize the above spell is not for everyone, because of the high level and the requisite, but many wizards could pull this of without blinking.

I believe you're right about the risk. A Magus with Flawless Magic could invent an entire set of these spells for that purpose only, and automatically master them - which would be too easy. Thanks for the pointers.

I can see it seems excessive that the same guideline is used to boost an INHO quite realistic range of +2 magnitudes as well as the utmost extreme of boosting that level 1 spell +11 magnitudes up to level 45.
Honestly, even if a level 1 guideline is useful how often will you use a spell with no extra magnitudes for R/D/T ? Sure, it can happen. But it needs a magus capable of casting the Mu(Cr)Vi of high level, albeit with no need for Penetration, so a casting score of lvl-10 is enough!

With this detailed dissection of the arguments I can certainly see reason in ruling an upper limit. But should it be a set limit (+2 or 3 or 4 magnitudes), or a percentage (+50%)?

Yes, I deliberately did not mention Flawless Magic for the single reason that I'd be seeing the counter argument that "it is a major hermetic virtue, making it somewhat rare and not a standard". But you are right that it would potentially unbalance things. So it should be taken into consideration.

And another thing: I just came to think of this as being a potential combat style of house Flambeau. To take a minor spell, which yo'd have decent penetration in, and Mu(Cr)Vi it to become very nasty. By only having to cast it as the original level you get large penetration. And the Metagamgic only needs to juuust go off, no Pen needed!
Sure, it is perhaps an impractical style, since you'd need to spread out in several arts. But if you start out mimicking School of the Founder you aldready have a decent Creo (and Ignem, naturally). And the Muto and Vim required need not be ridiculously high.

Christian: could I invite you to join the discussion on Ranulf and his spells?

A Creo requisite is added from +3 magnitudes onward, which also adds a 'lost magnitude' to the spell design. But from +3 magnitudes and up, it's the same calculation - no changes at all!

Well I'm not sure I agree with your thoughts on this. Think of the potential for boosting your spont. spells - especially those for which you have low scores, or the ones suffering from deficiencies. And also you might be afraid of botching because of an Infernal Aura or wanting to avoid Twillight; or you find yourself tied up and gagged; or maybe you're just wounded and fatigued - anyway, you'll not want to fatigue yourself! You should always be able to spont a level 1 spell though, which gives us Personal/Momentary/Individual. Sure the level 1 thing was to make a point, and I agree that it is rarely of much use. But following up with a mastered Mu(Cr)Vi spell of say level 10 or 15 is not hard IMO.

There are a plethora of great uses for this sort of spontaneous casting at levels 2-10 that could do with an extra +4 magnitudes of range/duration/target (or even more magnitudes for size or power). I know I said level 1, so below are some examples as an attempt to show the scope of this. Please note that in addition to only using level 1 guidelines, the spells listed cannot have any increases in range/duration/target to begin with (as you pointed put) and must make sense and be legal at this point. The requirement for range personal rules out quite a few spells, so going up to just a level 2 spell, would greatly increase the potential (I'll not even attempt to do that list...) and that could still be boosted for +10 magnitudes.

InHe: gain intuitive knowledge of a plant (increase range to sight or arcane connection)
CrCo: you get +1 to recovery rolls (increase duration to moon)
CrIg: creates light equivalent to moonlight (increase duration)
InIg: sense one property of a fire (increase range to sight or arcane connection)
InIg: locate a fire (increase range to arcane connection)
MuIm: change one sensation of an object (increase duration to sun)
MuMe: make a minor change in a person's memory of an event (increase range to sight or arcane connection)
InVi: Detect the presence of a mystical aura (increase range to arcane connection)
InVi: Detect the presence of vis (increase range to arcane connection)
InVi: Detect magic of tenth magnitude or higher (increase range to arcane connection)

I'm glad you agree. I would like some regulation in-line with the rules though, rather than just hand-waving a level cap, abusing my evil power as a ST :smiley:

  1. If we are introducing a set limit, it should not be at +2 or +3 since both are already covered in the guidelines as written. Also, I'd say that +3 is not the maximum, since the wording is something like '... any greater change...' than +2. The cap might then be at +4 magnitudes, which might a lot of sense, since you could never really boost either duration, range or target more than 4 steps. This might then acts as a common cap for MutoVim spells, so that you can't increase Size or Power more than 4 magnitudes either. If this is accepted the argument might be that increasing a spell by more than 4 magnitudes would break the limits of the original spell, as the result is too far from the original design. Also note, that following the guidelines we are at the same time discussing decreasing spells by more than 4 magnitudes - something that isn't possible without actually destroying the spell completely (which would of course be a different spell, covered by PeVi alone).

  2. Going for a percentage doesn´t sit well with me. But the idea of having the power of the original spell influence how much it could be altered is good. The level of the target spell then holds the key to the potential of the final spell, and I like that. As an interpretation of your suggestion one could rule that no spell could be increased more than 1 magnitude per 2 magnitudes of its 'natural level'. Going back to my extreme +11 magnitudes example, we see that it is no longer possible to squeeze out nearly that many magnitudes. In fact, the biggest possible increase would be +6 magnitudes on a spell of level 10 or 15 - given that we count the first 5 levels as steps in this case (if we don't, we're going to get some issues with the original Wizard's Boost spell). Although this ruling allows for a higher possible boost than the first, this one is much more restrictive. We cannot, for example, boost a PoF with +2 magnitudes for damage anymore, which I'm pretty sure will anger some dangerous Flambeu Magi out there (not to mention Ranulf himself). I'm not sure my Parma is good enough for a suggestion of this kind :stuck_out_tongue:

That was precisely the point, and something that has been touched a couple of times earlier in this thread already :slight_smile:

and later

But hey, I'm glad we agree :slight_smile: