IIRC, what you're describing is the Aristotelian description (according to canon, according to the supplements) of how any thrown/launched object is propelled through the air, not just how magic propels objects.
Yep, that is. But Sling of vilano does just that. OTOH Wielding the Invisible Sling moves magically the stone until it touches the target. So no impetus for Invisible sling, while it is Impetus in Vilano. So vilano is aimed and invisibole sling needs to penetrate 
The problem with the smith-wesson spell is that damage is based on Mass in ME. So a small stone cannot do that much damage because according to aristotle it is impossible to push it that hard. This fails abysmally in front of normal arrow/crossbow bolt ballistics, but it is how it is written the debate existed at the time IIRC my A&A, but hey. Quite a clear area of hermetic investigation and breakthrough that could ALSO revolutionize MUNDANE intellectual circles.
Cheers,
Xavi
This is why I said it doesn't instead of it does. His interpretation was that it would just fall straight down when the magic ends, while the canon interpretation has it keep moving. Your interpretation works fine in canon.
Chris
First: HoH:S page please.
Second: this interpretation opens a can of worm. When do you release your stone? As soon as it's thrown? 1 pace from the target? 1 inch from the target? How could you miss when you are this close?
I'd rather have an interpretation that's not open to abuse.
As long as your troupe is fine with it, that's all that matters. I would agree that halving the firing rate is worth a magnitude too.
I wasn't home. I am now. There's a huge box on page 35. It's pretty explicit that Xavi's interpretation (or at least very nearly that - I might have missed some subtlety) is canon for Ars Magica. As for when you release it, you "release control of it immediately after launching it."
Chris
Ok, thank you. The range increment makes a second penalty for R:Touch, too.
With a Range Increment of 20 paces, I think a mage would be better off using R:Voice for most purposes, altho' close-combat/personal defense would be one obvious and significant exception.
(Sigh - so many spells, so few seasons...) 
That's the sort of supplement change that is perfectly clear, and changes/expands the (then) core rules without need for interpretation of an apparent contradiction.
For those who care (and don't know), the story behind this is that when 5th came out, the Aiming rules changed radically from 4th (which required every(?) physical spell to be Aimed), and the majority of physical attack spells (most thing involving Rego at least) suddenly did not need aiming, making that magic much scarier and far more reliable in combat. Even low-Perception magi could hit something on a moonlit night in a chaotic combat if they could see their intended target at all. There were many early discussions on these boards about how (the default use of) Rego magic did not impart momentum, so a rock could be moved at lightning speed, but the moment the spell effect ended (from Duration or Range) it would simply stop and fall in place. The rules in HoH:S (for the school of Vilano (p29) et al, bypassing MR) allow for old-fashioned aimed attacks if one wants them, but at a cost of returning to the painful Aiming penalties.
Having played a lot of 4th ed. I remember the oddity that Boaf and IoL both were 7th magnitude but IoL had a damage 50% higher than Boaf due to an abysmal Aiming modifier compared to the other. So - do you want to hit or to kill?
OK, just to verify,
you can't add impetus to a rego effect to allow a spell that moves an object a range increment beyond that which the spell has as a range.
you can't add damage by adding magnitudes for extra force.
you can add a bonus to hit, but only by firing large quantities of affected type at the victim.
does that pretty much cover it?
K.
No, not really.
- Yes, you can move things beyond the spell's Range. Two examples: First, you can use a R: Touch spell to teleport an object elsewhere. Second, you can use a R: Touch spell to touch a projectile and send it flying many paces.
- Yes, you can add damage by adding magnitudes. However, a significant increase will need a larger projectile.
- Usually a very large object can also provide a Finesse bonus according to ArM5. Also, I'm not sure there is any rule saying you couldn't add complexity to a spell to add a bonus to Finesse. Certainly there are other spells, such as Conjuring the Mystic Tower, that seem to behave this way at least somewhat.
Chris
[quote="Janus"]
OK, just to verify,
you can't add impetus to a rego effect to allow a spell that moves an object a range increment beyond that which the spell has as a range.
[/quote]
...[u]and[/u] still keep control of it, to have a spell without an "aiming" roll.
[quote]
you can't add damage by adding magnitudes for extra force.
[/quote]
Not and apply the formula F = mv^2. A rule of +1 magnitude for +5 damage seems commonly accepted. And at some point (for many Sagas), there is practical limit to merely making the spell "larger magnitude" without explaining how one is achieving the desired effect (and some Sagas have speed limits on Rego, or whatever.)
[quote]
you can add a bonus to hit, but only by firing large quantities of affected type at the victim.
[/quote]
As above, there has to be "common sense" applied to how one is achieving the end affect. So, whether using a "shotgun" approach, or creating a wider area of affect, or whatever, I would think that it has to be explained. (Note also that at some point, "aiming" is automatic - if a mage can create an affect of 100 paces in diameter, it's going to be hard for the SG to explain how any victim dove out of harm's way. :wink: )
Just to necro-the thread - the discussion found that Re can be used to create ballistic projectiles that ignore MR, if the spell is created specifically with that in mind.
- It that far outside the typical mindset for a Magus?
- And to take the example further, would a 12C mindset consider using many projectiles to spray the target with stones, or is that too much of a 20C concept?
It seems that a ReTe expert has a very good opportunity to create some nasty ballistic based spells, which will affect both normal and MR targets. I'm wary that too much 20C thinking might be introduced by this concept.
Always better to keep like-topics under one thread, even if months diff in posting. All good by me!
"Typical" is very saga-dependent. If your SG/Troupe says so, then it is; otherwise...
But in canon, the Flambeau school of Vilano would be very familiar with this approach, and any apprentice who has studied Magic Resistance would appreciate its potential. (See HoH:Soc, p 29 etc)
I think that once we add "magic" to a 12C mindset, all bets are off as far as what is "appropriate" - the addition of magic might inspire almost anything. If the Troupe/Sg buys it (and it's not going to break the game), then it's all good.
But remember a basic (if unwritten) rule of Ars spells - one spell, one die roll for damage* (per victim). A mage can't simply add +3 magnitudes to a d+10 spell for Group + x10 and get 100 d+10 attacks.
(* Edit - clarified what "one die roll" I was referring to)
I was thinking exactly along those lines. It seems a great bending of the rules in terms of raw damage output to create a spell like a mini-gun - and hose the opponent with it. Good to know its considered bad form.
It does make me think that a boosted version of the V's Sling rewritten at level 20 for +15 damage is nasty, and especially if the Magus then also starts multicasting the spell. An opponent might survive one casting, but being hit three times in one round by +15 damage is likely to hurt a lot.
Exactly. And on average 10 of those 100 attack stress die is going to "explode", and some will almost certainly go into the 10+15+ damage range - besides the other ninety d+10 attacks. Ouchers.
(Some SG's on these boards have spoken of limiting multi-casting on the same target for that same reason, that even just 3 or 4 attacks (with Penetration, natch) seem just too overboard.)
Hardly! Massed ranks of archers, javelin throwers etc etc is a VERY old concept.
Been part of warfare as long back in history as there are records, meaning at least a couple of thousand years before 12C.
Very much doubt it. What may be against the "typical mindset" would more likely be the need to up the spell by 2 magnitudes. Since it also requires a Finesse roll, it may not be suited for a lot of magi.
Projecting a sling stone at the target a sling stone, vs a tennis ball, vs a bowling ball, vs beach ball sized projectile - fun discussion. I got to thinking that the V's Improved Sling spell could optionally project much larger ordinance without any change in level; which in turn should see a much larger base damage for the same spell power.
If the magus then wishes to optimise the build of the spell, they'll get as large a projectile they can using the same base cost in magnitude. I'd guess that a sling bullet is probably not the largest projectile created by the base cost for Terram, but is close in terms of not paying extra magnitudes. Wikipedia indicates that slings could be anywhere from 50g to 500g (2 oz to 1 lbs) in weight (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sling_%28weapon%29). So lets say 1 lb as a base, as its easier on the math (I'm an Aussie and working in imperial measurements hurts my brain sometimes).
There is a difference between baked clay, stone, lead and such as sling ammunition was improved (slinging.org/wiki2/index.php/Main/PROJECTILES), and also in the use of ovoid bullets which were improvements over stone balls and rocks.
It seems that the concept of a sling bullet properly shaped is well within the understanding of the 12C, so safe to assume that the magus would opt for shaped ammo vs just using spheres. But its getting too meta-detailed to stress when the damage is a combination of the speed and size, rather than size alone, given that a bullet can get close to 90 meters per second from a standard sling.
So a 0.5 to 1 lbs sling bullet inflicts +5 damage, and can be improved by 2 Mags, to a rough maximum of +15.
- What is the base damage for a 15 lb projectile with the same velocity?
Base target for stone is 1 cubic pace, which is much bigger than a sling (far far larger!), weighing around 150 lbs.
Given that the base magnitude is not altered downward for less mass (150 lbs vs 1 lb) then the magi considers changing Target to allow many projectiles, without too much increase in Mags. They have to pay for that increase, by changing the target from Individual (as a single projectile) to +1 mag for a group of up to 10 projectiles.
That all means each projectile can still be 15 lbs in weight, which is a very dynamic increase in projectile size. I tried to dig for an indication of what a 15 lb or 150 lb projectile would inflict, but can't find an accurate reference. A 150 lb projectile sounds far more like a catapult's ammunition.
Even recreating the spell with +1 mag for 10 objects gives x10 targeting rolls, but also the potential to inflict a lot of small wounds at d+5. Even if only an average of 4 hit, the spell has increased in effect dramatically for a small cost. Using the same damage scaling in HoH:S that could be x10 d+15 impacts; with a spell level of ReTe30. Sure that is high, but certainly possible to create.
The drawbacks I can see is having enough ammunition available to actually use that many stones, and also carrying that ammo around.
Which ends my thoughts with an invested staff which casts this spell ReTe30 effect, drawing ammo from a backpack worn by a grog. You could even enchant the backpack (or even a smaller device) to affect the backpack to lessen the weight while it is within the pack.
Then go all out and give the invested effect a +1 mag for complexity, which allows the user to chose single fire (x1), burst (x3) or full auto (x10) rounds to be fired.
Have I broken the 12C mindset yet? 
If the size of the projectile stuff above is allowed, the base Damage might be +10 for a 15 lb projectile, giving +20 when am'ed up by x2 mags as per the rules for V's Sling.
+2 M, not +1.
Only by terminology. You can find drawings and descriptions for attempts at making salvo weapons at least a millenia earlier.
The most extreme and also fully working result of those attempts were probably the Korean "Hwacha" from the 15th century which could fire hundreds of explosive rockets in each volley while being reasonably fast to reload.
The first real known use in Europe of a multi-barrel salvo weapon is still as far back as 1339 with Edward III´s army using 12-barreled ribauldequins.
Earlier attempts with crossbows and other solutions didn´t work so well, but were still very much tried.