Range touch in combat

[Berengar]

@eldarin

Yeah, definitely defender... Might die before hitting otherwise But I'd still have successfully attack in order to use range touch, right?

If your target resists and isn't immobilized: yes. This makes R: Touch magic effects verrry complicated and unlikely to succeed in combat.

Cheers

[Ignes.Festivus]

It poses the same problems, but usually requires that you drop your MR for the item to read your mind as well - in the middle of combat. Really risky

Hi!
OP may be referring to their magus’s Talisman, which gets around this problem with P:Range, and since InMe is one of the strengths of the character eldarin might be posing these questions for, it looks very feasible, and useful for further InMe-triggered effects .

[Berengar]

@Ignes.Festivus

It poses the same problems, but usually requires that you drop your MR for the item to read your mind as well - in the middle of combat. Really risky

Hi!
OP may be referring to their magus’s Talisman, which gets around this problem with P:Range, and since InMe is one of the strengths of the character eldarin might be posing these questions for, it looks very feasible, and useful for further InMe-triggered effects .

Your talisman's effects still need to overcome your MR, right? And that MR typically grows over time, while the Penetration of instilled effects doesn't. So were back to dropping MR in combat for your talisman to read your mind, right?

Cheers

[eldarin]

@One Shot

@Ignes.Festivus

It poses the same problems, but usually requires that you drop your MR for the item to read your mind as well - in the middle of combat. Really risky

Hi!
OP may be referring to their magus’s Talisman, which gets around this problem with P:Range, and since InMe is one of the strengths of the character eldarin might be posing these questions for, it looks very feasible, and useful for further InMe-triggered effects .

Your talisman's effects still need to overcome your MR, right? And that MR typically grows over time, while the Penetration of instilled effects doesn't. So were back to dropping MR in combat for your talisman to read your mind, right?

Cheers

According to AM5 page 85 and 98 actually no.

Spells cast with Personal range do not have to overcome magic resistance.

First, your talisman is considered to be apart of you as long as you are touching it.Personal range spells can affect your talisman,Personal range effects in the talisman can affect you, ...

Right now I'll still have the problem that I first have to hit a target though. Too many abilities to have to have - not very high scores and an especially low score in weapon.

[jason72 (Jason)]

Would Fast Casting via Mastery allow you to both cast the spell and touch a person in combat in one round?

[Berengar]

@eldarin (underscores mine)

According to AM5 page 85 and 98 actually no.

Spells cast with Personal range do not have to overcome magic resistance.

First, your talisman is considered to be apart of you as long as you are touching it.Personal range spells can affect your talisman,Personal range effects in the talisman can affect you, ...

So, you need to maintain "spells = effects" to make the argument conclusive. But:

@"ArM5 p.98 [i

Instilling Effects[/i]"]The effects instilled in enchanted items are designed like spells, but they are not spells.

This holds especially for ArM5 p.99 Linked Trigger effects, which can't be just replaced by spells.

If you wish to rule around this, best discuss this with your troupe.

Cheers

[eldarin]

I'd personally judge this as an oversight of an edge case.

Usually only spells can have range personal, a device effect needs at least touch unless the item is a talisman.

Same goes for

An effect to allowmental activation needs to be able to read surfacethoughts continually, with at least Touch Range

Only a talisman could have something below touch.

But you are right. Taking the text by the letter the magic resistance reference is for spells and effects are of course effects and not spells.

I wonder in how many cases taking AM5 and supplements to the letter leads to contradictions...

[darkwing]

Performance magic in The Mysteries p29 mentions using Brawl or Martial abilities to cast spells, and that you take three extra botch dice and treat all non-botch rolls as rolls of zero. So say you don't have Performance magic, you'd need to take a penalty for replacing normal movements with a combat move to touch your opponent and risk all those extra botch dice...

[Berengar]

@eldarin

I wonder in how many cases taking AM5 and supplements to the letter leads to contradictions...

Take a look at the accumulated errata for ArM5 over some 12 years here.
Consider, how easy it would have been to errata those three lines you don't like - but they are kept, and don't lead to contradictions.

This does prevent your troupe in no way from taking the responsibility and overruling them, or course.

Cheers

[Berengar]

@jason72

Would Fast Casting via Mastery allow you to both cast the spell and touch a person in combat in one round?

Not by Fast Casting from ArM5 p.83. It would just be another house rule.

Cheers

[eldarin]

@darkwing

Performance magic in The Mysteries p29 mentions using Brawl or Martial abilities to cast spells, and that you take three extra botch dice and treat all non-botch rolls as rolls of zero. So say you don't have Performance magic, you'd need to take a penalty for replacing normal movements with a combat move to touch your opponent and risk all those extra botch dice...

In the particular case that let me bring up the question this would not apply imho because of subtle and quiet (2x) magic.

[eldarin]

@One Shot

@eldarin

I wonder in how many cases taking AM5 and supplements to the letter leads to contradictions...

Take a look at the accumulated errata for ArM5 over some 12 years here.
Consider, how easy it would have been to errata those three lines you don't like - but they are kept, and don't lead to contradictions.

This does prevent your troupe in no way from taking the responsibility and overruling them, or course.

Cheers

I don't think I argued for why I don't like those lines.

[jason72 (Jason)]

@One Shot

@jason72

Would Fast Casting via Mastery allow you to both cast the spell and touch a person in combat in one round?

Not by Fast Casting from ArM5 p.83. It would just be another house rule.

Cheers

And if you're using LoM, Ch. 9?

[callen]

While very specific to PeCo effects in weapons, this shows you striking a target to get an effect in terms of Attack Advantage and the rest:

@MoH p.134

Enchanted weapons based on PeCo that affect a target at Range Touch must hit the opponent to take effect; that is, they require a positive Attack Advantage. Armor made from Terram or Animal does not prevent damage caused by a Corpus effect per se, so the attack need not successfully deal damage.

@One Shot

@eldarin

That's why I had item effect in parentheses.

Triggering an item to attack something is roughly the same as casting a spell - unless you design a highly dangerous 'mine' type of item, like one which goes off every time it touches something with the right part.

There are canon effects that disagree with this, having you trigger the effect by doing things like saying certain words or holding your hands in certain ways while striking an opponent as opposed to beforehand. Look at nearly all the effect on p.51 of MoH.

[callen]

As for not needing penetration v. needing it for effects, do those of you arguing that the Talisman would need to penetrate to affect the magus with a R: Personal effect also have a magus's Magic Resistance block R: Personal effects from the item on the item itself? For example, let's say you've bonded a familiar and have a R: Personal, Constant (D: Sun, x2, environmental) effect in your Talisman. If you're holding your Talisman at sunrise or sunset, the effect doesn't work for the next half a day, right?

I don't really like that. I prefer to allow the Talisman to affect the magus touching it with R: Personal effects without needing Penetration. It also avoids the question of how the magic of the Talisman's attunements might possibly bypass Magic Resistance if contained magic that would commonly (as a spell) bypass Magic Resistance cannot.

[Berengar]

@jason72

@One Shot

@jason72

Would Fast Casting via Mastery allow you to both cast the spell and touch a person in combat in one round?

Not by Fast Casting from ArM5 p.83. It would just be another house rule.

Cheers

And if you're using LoM, Ch. 9?

This is Optional Combat Rules, overriding previous rules as a general troupe decision.

Cheers

[Ignes.Festivus]

Hi all,

Found specific, explicit language on Talisman and MR, on the topic of Enriching Things of Virtue, to RoP:M, p 125, lower insert about Hermetic magi and Enriching Objects of Virtue:
“An invested item made from an Enriched Thing of Virtue can only be made into a talisman if the magus Enriched the item himself. As a talisman, the Thing of Virtue ignores its owner's Magic Resistance, and is the only way that a magus can acquire the granted Virtue. A Thing of Virtue made into a talisman does not Warp its creator.”

[Berengar]

@Ignes.Festivus

Hi all,

Found specific, explicit language on Talisman and MR, on the topic of Enriching Things of Virtue, to RoP:M, p 125, lower insert about Hermetic magi and Enriching Objects of Virtue:
“An invested item made from an Enriched Thing of Virtue can only be made into a talisman if the magus Enriched the item himself. As a talisman, the Thing of Virtue ignores its owner's Magic Resistance, and is the only way that a magus can acquire the granted Virtue. A Thing of Virtue made into a talisman does not Warp its creator.”

This is indeed an explicit, conclusive, but well hidden extension of the ArM5 p.85f Magic Resistance rules.

Cheers

EDIT: Your find might indeed be a reason for an additional erratum in ArM5, like:
ArM5 p.85 Replace in the first phrase of the second paragraph of The Functioning of Magic Resistance "Spells cast with Personal range do not have to overcome magic resistance" with "Magic with Personal range does not have to overcome magic resistance".

[Berengar]

@callen

@One Shot

@eldarin

That's why I had item effect in parentheses.

Triggering an item to attack something is roughly the same as casting a spell - unless you design a highly dangerous 'mine' type of item, like one which goes off every time it touches something with the right part.

There are canon effects that disagree with this, having you trigger the effect by doing things like saying certain words or holding your hands in certain ways while striking an opponent as opposed to beforehand. Look at nearly all the effect on p.51 of MoH.

MoH p.51 Talisman: Troll's Wife has three D: Mom effects: Fell the Faerie, Hew the Hell Beast and Sharpening the Wizard's Blade of Vim. It uses, that D: Mom can last a little longer than a (ArM5 p.172) six second combat round.
So it does not state, that the attacks following the triggering words for Fell the Faerie and Hew the Hell Beast need to be in the same combat round, but explicitly states, that triggering the D: Mom Sharpening the Wizard's Blade of Vim affects the Penetration total of the other two talisman effects in following rounds. Its a tight dance around the rules, but passed review.
That's also why I wrote above "Triggering an item to attack something is roughly the same as casting a spell".

Cheers

[callen]

@One Shot

So it does not state, that the attacks following the triggering words for Fell the Faerie and Hew the Hell Beast need to be in the same combat round, but explicitly states, that triggering the D: Mom Sharpening the Wizard's Blade of Vim affects the Penetration total of the other two talisman effects in following rounds. Its a tight dance around the rules, but passed review.

You missed nearly half of them, and I'm not talking about Sharpening the Wizard's Blade of Vim. But first, those effects. You said "the attacks following..." Where does that come from? Fell the Faerie and Hew the Hell Beast both say "when striking," not "before striking." As for the others, Night-Time Thunder andVaulting Lightning using striking in a particular way as the trigger itself. You could follow those examples and say something like "this effect is triggered when a being is struck while user of the weapon is holding the haft/hilt."