Ranulf from MoH now 150 years post apprentice!!!!

[Erik_Tyrrell]

An updated list of Ranulf's enchanted devices I mostly copied from the 105 years out list. I updated pila of unmatched heat on his talisman and I added hands of the tiny lizard

Chest of the Ember Seed, see Magi of Hermes p.114 ,

Ribbon of Arcane Preservation, see Magi of Hermes p.113,

Casting Tablet (or not depending upon your take with regards to casting tablets and creo corpus boosting rituals, it’s here because that’s what it would be reasonable for Ranulf to do , not because it’s important to his story) :

Ritual of Apollonian Resilience
CrCo 55, Ritual
R: Per., D: Mom.,, T: Ind.
This ritual permanently increases the Stamina of the caster by a single point (but not above +5). The spell can not undo the effects of aging, if a magus has lost one or more points of stamina due to aging the maximum stamina score attainable by use of this spell is similarly reduced. Ritual of Apollonian Resilience was originally developed by a member of a mystery cult working to perfect herself for Ascension to the Hall of Heroes. Copies of a casting tablet made from her spell have been distributed widely since she first created it. Many magi are more comfortable casting rituals upon themselves than allowing themselves to be altered by the magic of others.
(base 55)

Hands of the Tiny Lizard
ReTe(He) 29
R: Voice, D: Conc. T: ind
This tiny golden wand that Artisano carries in a small pouch hung from the same chain as the Pendant of Patient Incantations is a lesser enchanted device. It can hold immobile or slowly manipulate a single item of clay, stone, base metal, or plant products . The targeted item is controlled with a force similar to that of a very strong person (+5). In general the more heavy an object is the slower it is moved. The effect has the same limitations as the spell unseen porter: the effect can not carry the wielder, nothing can be lifted above the height of a man, and delicate tasks require difficult finesse rolls on the order of ease factor 12)
(Base 3, +2 for stone and metal, +2 voice, +1 concentration, +1 Herbam requisite, +4 levels 12 uses per day)

Pendant of Patient Incantations
ReVi 30 (24 uses per day)
R: Touch, D: Conc. (item maintains concentration), T: Ind

The Pendant of Patient Incantations is a small silver teardrop it is suspended by a tiny chain (appropriate for Artisano's neck). Only the teardrop is enchanted the chain is mundane. When this item is used in conjunction with casting a spell (requiring an intelligence + concentration roll of 6) the other spell is delayed in taking effect until the pendant ceases concentration on The Patient Spell. The target spell can be of no higher level than the level 20. A spell held using the pendant of the Patient Spell may be released to interrupt an action in the same manner as a fast cast spell requiring the same “fast casting” roll of concentration + finesse (ArM5 page 83). A spell released from the pendant can only be directed at a specific target if the wielder has a score in Finesse and an understanding of the magic that was released (such as a score in Magic theory for Hermetic magic). At sunrise or sunset any remaining spells in the pendant are released in random directions at random targets as the pendant's concentration ends.
Ranulf uses the Pendant of the Patient Spell to fill up 10 or fifteen spells , often skin of wax cast in a beneficial aura with ceremonial magic, hide of wax or Pillum of Fire. He then gives the pendant to Artisano. The pendant of Patient Incantations also provides Ranulf an opportunity to cast Boreal Flames with Pillum of Fire. Casting a spell in conjunction with the cessation of The Patient Spell also requires an intelligence + concentration roll of 6 to perform successfully if the caster is the one releasing the spell, it can be done automatically if the caster is cooperating with someone else who is wielding the item.
(base 4 +1 touch +5 levels item maintains concentration + 5 levels 24 uses per day)

Pendant of the eagle's vision
InIm 32
R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Ind
The target touched in the eye by this small golden eye shaped pendant is affected as if they had cast the spell Eyes of the Eagle (Arm5 p. 145)
(Base 3 +1 touch, +2 sun, +4 vision, +2 levels 3 uses per day)

Laboratory: Ranulf’s laboratory is described in see Magi of Hermes p. 114. It has the following qualities:
Highly organized
Excessive Heat
Excessive light
Lesser focus: Ignem
enchanted device : (+5 Ignem bonus)
Minor feature (balcony)
lesser focus (balcony)
Precious Ingredients
Superior equipment

These qualities give the lab the following characteristics
General quality +2
Upkeep +4
Aesthetics +1

Specializations:
Spells +3
Vis extraction +1
Ignem +7
Imaginem +2

It has the following enchantments
Eyes of the Acolyte see Magi of Hermes p. 114
Laboratory that has learned from experience see Magi of Hermes p. 114
Façade of Pentecost see Magi of Hermes p. 114

The Flame of Consummate Obedience
Cr(Mu,Re)Ig 50
pen 0 24 uses per day
R; Personal, Dur Conc. (Item maintains concentration) t: Ind.

Ranulf's laboratory has been enchanted to create a nearly perfect fire at the will of its user. The Hearth within Ranulf's Laboratory can create a fire of any heat up to +25 damage. This fire can be as any size up to the size of a normal hearth fire. The flame can be altered into any form that does not require form requisites it can be more or less smokey, it can smell of roses, it can be of any color) the motion and the shape of the flame are also under the control of the user (it can be fashioned into the shape of a lizard or it can continually rotate around a horizontal axis) although the created flame can not leave the area of the hearth. The chief use that Ranulf and Artisano put the effect to however is to create a fire and alter the fire subtly for several minutes or even hours in order to create exactly the fire that they imagine.
(Base 20, +1 concentration , +1 rego requisite, +1 muto requisite, +1 breadth of variability; modifications +5 levels item maintains concentration, +5 levels 24 uses per day)

School of The Founder's Advocate
This invested device takes the form of a silver ring inlaid with a ring of polished hornbeam. It was opened with seven pawns of vis and the enchantment capacity of the item has been filled by the two effects Anticipation of Incineration and Unraveling the Fabric of Ignem.
This device was created by a Ranulf and a fellow school of the Founder flambeau socitates Milites. Because it was well known that both of magi favored ignem magic, they worried that anyone who had advance warning of them might very well protect themselves with rego ignem wards against fire spells.
As is usually the case with such devices, the wearer must suppress their parma magica as they place the ring on their finger in order to allow the Anticipation of Incineration to target them. The ring functions only while the wearer keeps it on his or her finger. Anticipation of incineration only functions once per day, so if the wearer takes the ring off, it will not work again until the next sunrise or sunset.

Anticipation of Incineration
InMe Level 30
R: Touch, D: Concentration, T: Ind
This effect reads the mind of the target (the wearer) and determines when they are starting to cast a creo ignem attack spell on a target. Anticipation of Incineration then triggers unraveling the fabric of ignem. Anticipation of incineration was specifically designed so as not to warp Ranulf as a powerful effect (the item can still cause warping to him as a long term effect if he were the sort of fellow who wore it most of the time, which he isn't).
(Base 15, +1 touch, +1 concentration modifications: +5 levels item maintains concentration)

Unraveling the Fabric of Ignem
PeVi Level 40
Pen 40, 3 uses per day
R: Voice, D: Momentary, T: Ind
This effect has a linked trigger. It is set off when the anticipation of incineration enchantment detects that the wearer is about to attack a target with a creo ignem spell.
This effect is intended to remove ignem wards such as Ward Against Heat and Flames (ArM5 p. 143) that might otherwise protect the target from the deleterious results of getting hit with multicast pillum of fire spells. The effect functions as Unraveling the Fabric of [Form] (ArM5 p. 161), dispelling all hermetic ignem effects of level 25 + stress die (no botch) and lower. It functions three times per day and it has a penetration of 40.
A caster who spends a few days practicing with the School of the Founder's Advocate can learn to cast their spells sufficiently slowly to allow unraveling the fabric of ignem to take effect before their attack spell. When the caster does this, their initiative is reduced by two for the rest of the combat.
(Base 5, +2 Voice, modifications +2 levels 3x per day, +3 levels linked trigger, +20 levels 40 penetration)

Talisman of Ranulf
A description of Ranulf’s Talisman is in Magi of Hermes p 115

At 120 years out of apprenticeship Ranulf’s talisman has been opened with 52 pawns of vis. 49 of these pawns have been filled. It has the following attunements
Bonus Subject
4 Affect dead wood
3 Affect living wood
4 Control things at a distance,
4 Destroy things at a distance,
3 Divination,
6 Fire related effects,
7 Harm or repel faeries
4 Leadership in war
3 Project bolt or missile
2 Repel things,
1 Terram
4 Wards

The Talisman has the following enchantments in it:
Topiary of Flames see Magi of Hermes p. 115
Flames of Stone see Magi of Hermes p. 115
Shadow of Spring times Departed see Magi of Hermes p. 115
Surfeit of Fuel see Magi of Hermes p. 115
Shriek of the Impending Staves see Magi of Hermes p. 115
Defense of the Roaring Furnace see Magi of Hermes p. 115

Firey Attentive Talisman
ReVi 47
Pen +0, 6x per day , Item maintains concentration
R: Touch, D: Conc., T: Ind
Firey Attentive Talisman sustains a vim spell of duration concentration as Maintain the Demanding Spell. It can sustain concentration spells of up to level 40. Unlike casting Maintain the Demanding Spell activating Mindful Talisman while maintaining a spell requires an intelligence + concentration roll of only trivial difficult (ease factor 3).
(Base 30, +1 touch, +1 concentration, modifications: +5 levels item maintains concentration, +3 levels six uses per day )

Sense the Pillums of Fire
InIg 10
Pen 0, 3 uses per day
R: Touch, D: Conc. (item maintains concentration)T: individual
This effect senses when the individual touched produces a bolt of flame. The effect can not distinguish between a PoF created by hermetic magic or some other effect that creates a similar bolt of flame. It is intellego Ignem not intellego vim.)
(Base 1, +1 range touch, +1 concentration, +5 levels item maintains concentration +2 levels 3 uses per day)

Pillums of Jagged Bones
Mu Ig (Co) 70
penetration +74, 24 uses per day
R:Touch, D: Mom., T: Group
This effect alters pilums of fire as they are cast by the wielder changing them into wickedly sharp javelins of human bone. the javalins do +10 damage to any target they strike and also do +5 damage from their extreme heat (which is not dissipated by the spell, but the pilums no longer generate heat after their transformation). Ranulf instilled this to target creatures that were completely immune to heat, the bolts however can still be warded against by spells that control fire (muto does not remove the fire nature of the pillum). This enchantment is activated by linked trigger only when Sense the Pillums of Fire senses a Pillum of fire and the staf is being held in a specific manner.
(base 10, +1 Touch, +2 Group. modifications;+3 levels linked trigger, +5 levels 24 uses per day, +37 levels +74 penetration)

Pila of Unmatched Heat
MuIg 106 50 uses per day 94 penetration
R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Group
This effect alters a pillum of fire or a group of up to 10 multi-cast pilums as they are created increasing the heat of the spell to do an additional +30 damage each (for a total of +45 for a normal Pof and +50 for a wizard's boosted PoF). This enchantment is activated by linked trigger only when Sense the Pillums of Fire senses a Pillum of fire and the staff is being held in a specific manner.
(base 1, +2 voice, +2 group, +3 target fires of up to +20 damage, +6 increases damage by +30, modifications: +3 levels linked trigger, + 6 levels 50 uses per day,+47 levels 94 penetration)

Adamant Talisman
MuHe(Te) 23
pen 0 six uses per day
R: Personal, D: Conc. (item maintains Concentration) T: Ind.
The talisman becomes at least as hard as the hardest gemstone. Ranulf has not tested how hard it really gets and doesn't feel inclined to do so.
(Base 5, +1 Concentration modifications, +1 terram requisite for also effecting terram components of talisman; +5 levels item maintains concentration, +3 levels six uses per day)

Flexibility of Twine
MuHe 5
pen 0
R: Personal, D: Sun T: Ind.
The talisman becomes as flexible as rope. It becomes no easier to bend than normal,. But it resists cracking and breaking when it is bent as if it were a piece of rope rather than a piece of wood.
(Base 3 +2 sun)

[Ignes.Festivus]

Hi, just popped in to say that this is great! Immediately useful as a NPC, and even better as an exercise in exploring a theme and discussing Ars Magica guidelines.

Three questions if you don't mind:
Ranulf has a lot of MuVi spells! A lot! What is the consensus, do you know, on casting more than one MuVi spell modifying another spell? Say augment range, effect, and Duration? MuVi(Vim) spells on MuVi modifying another effect?

Without Careful with Ability: Concentration, plus a lot of combat spells and MuVi to modify them isn't Ranulf bound to botch spell casting in actual combat with some worrying frequency? Even Pilum of Flames with Mastery 6 and his Gold Cord, if it's MuVi'ed? Don't know if this was a deliberate decision.

Pendant of Patient Incantations: I am surprised at an item that generates any effect that can be fast cast. I missed any discussion regarding this, can you explain your reasoning behind being able to do so?

Thank you!

[Erik_Tyrrell]

@Ignes.Festivus

Ranulf has a lot of MuVi spells! A lot! What is the consensus, do you know, on casting more than one MuVi spell modifying another spell? Say augment range, effect, and Duration? MuVi(Vim) spells on MuVi modifying another effect?

This was, cleared up in the description of wizard's expansion (not co-incidentally, in the Ranulf chapter of Magi of Hermes).

The targeted spell must be at least one magnitude lower than this spell. A single spell may not be affected more than once with this spell, but when two magi cooperate, a spell can be the target of both Wizard’s Expansion and Wizard’s Reach, providing that one of the two Muto Vim spells is at least two magnitudes higher than the target spell.

The intent was that if one has multiple muto vim spells acting on a single target spell that the levels of the muto vim spells need to be such so that if they were done sequentially (which they aren't and couldn't be) the spells would need to accommodate the "modified level" from the previous muto vim spells.

Wow, it seemed so intuitive, I've never written it all out before in a general case.

Without Careful with Ability: Concentration, plus a lot of combat spells and MuVi to modify them isn't Ranulf bound to botch spell casting in actual combat with some worrying frequency? Even Pilum of Flames with Mastery 6 and his Gold Cord, if it's MuVi'ed? Don't know if this was a deliberate decision.

If he uses muto vim spells in combat he does run a higher risk of botching. I agree with you that this is a risk that Ranulf takes with his magic. Perhaps my imagination is biased, but when I think about really flubbing up on concentration roll my imagination doesn't come up with particularly nasty effects when compared to botching a casting roll. Also, if I recall correctly, imperturbable casting mastery gives some benefit to concentration rolls. With a gold cord of three, he's no worse with four botch dice than he is with the standard one botch die. What proportion of situations really call for more than four botch dice.

Also I consciously had in mind and didn't shy from doing stuff that pointed out that Ars Magica NPC's don't experience violence with a fraction of the frequency of D&D PC's or even most Ars Magica PC's.

That was too long, I probably should have just said "yes" and left it.

Pendant of Patient Incantations: I am surprised at an item that generates any effect that can be fast cast. I missed any discussion regarding this, can you explain your reasoning behind being able to do so?

We're looking back lots of years at this point. Seeing it again I am rather surprised that there wasn't more of a discussion. I remember that at the time I was kind of uneasy regarding the targeting abilities of the pendant rather than the timeing.

Here's justification for it. I'm writing it for the first time right now at the breakfast table and I would love someone to clearly (but kindly) point out its flaws.

When pendant of paitient incantations releases a spell, it is not performing a magical act - it is stopping the magical act It is litterally dropping concentration. A character can drop concentration on any number of effects at once without taking any time at all. It's hard as heck to get off two fast cast spells in a round, yet easy as can be to drop concentration on four. It therefore seems reasonable that releasing spells held by the Pendant of Patient Incantations should be at least as fast as a fast cast spell.

Thank you!

Thank you for taking the time to read.

[raccoonmask]

@Erik Tyrrell

Without Careful with Ability: Concentration, plus a lot of combat spells and MuVi to modify them isn't Ranulf bound to botch spell casting in actual combat with some worrying frequency? Even Pilum of Flames with Mastery 6 and his Gold Cord, if it's MuVi'ed? Don't know if this was a deliberate decision.

If he uses muto vim spells in combat he does run a higher risk of botching. I agree with you that this is a risk that Ranulf takes with his magic. Perhaps my imagination is biased, but when I think about really flubbing up on concentration roll my imagination doesn't come up with particularly nasty effects when compared to botching a casting roll. Also, if I recall correctly, imperturbable casting mastery gives some benefit to concentration rolls. With a gold cord of three, he's no worse with four botch dice than he is with the standard one botch die. What proportion of situations really call for more than four botch dice.
Also I consciously had in mind and didn't shy from doing stuff that pointed out that Ars Magica NPC's don't experience violence with a fraction of the frequency of D&D PC's or even most Ars Magica PC's.
That was too long, I probably should have just said "yes" and left it.

I for one appreciate the thought process being spelled out. As far as concentration botches: Accidentally drop concentration on other concentrated spells; Become very distracted by something during that spell casting and be unable to 'concentrate' more than one spell (or any spells!) for a minute ("Muto Vi-I can't believe he called my mother that- er, Vim!") if you're feeling nasty, you could easily make a concentration botch translate into botching the spell being cast at the same time - just like breaking a circle in the middle of a Ring/Circle ritual cast.

[Erik_Tyrrell]

Illumination of the Airy Spirits
MuIg(Vi) 15
R:Touch, Dur: Sun, T: Ind.
The fire targeted by this spell will produce light that reflects off of immaterial spirits. Spirits illuminated by the fire's light appear as glowing shapes, providing that the spell penetrates their magic resistance.
(base 4, +1 touch, +2 sun)

I'm starting off with this spell and I think it's worth evaluating carefully. So I'm not going to even calculate a lab total and decide on activities until I'm comfortable with it.

Firstly, does a disembodied spirit even have a shape to illuminate?

Secondly, I envisiioned this spell just altering the properties of the fire's light, detecting spirits in a manner analogous to how a shower of whipped cream might detect an invisible person. I envision it as Ranaulf specifically finding a way around his intellego deficiency. But is that right? does it need an intellego requisite anyway?

Does it need to be realm specific?

[Erik_Tyrrell]

After an excellent discussion over here: Detecting spirits without intellego - #31 by Erik_Tyrrell

This is the revised spell

Illumination of the Immaterial Form [magic]
MuIg(Vi) 25
R:Touch, Dur: Sun, T: Ind.
This spell targets the light produced by a single fire. This targeted light reflect off of and fail to pass through immaterial spirits possessing magic might. Observers can see bright spots at a spirit's location from the reflected glow of the targeted fire, providing that the spell penetrates the spirit's magic resistance. Immaterial magical spirits in the vicinity of the targeted which posses shapes also cast shadows whether or not the spell penetrates their magic resistance. Not all immaterial spirits have a shape to be illuminated and not all of those that do have a shape at all times Airy spirits typically do not but ghosts and those spirits encountered by the nightwaker tradition from Hedge Magic Revised Edition typically do. A similar spell could be created for each of the realms of power although it is unlikely that an infernal version would ever be of benefit to the caster.
(base 4, +1 touch, +2 sun, +2 magnitudes complexity, requisite is essential)

At this point Ranulf's MuIg(Vi) lab total is 101, which means he can invent both Illumination of the immaterial form [magic] and a second twenty-fifth level spell that uses the same lab total. So he'll do this one as well.

Demon Expunging Flame
MuIg(Vi) 25
R:Voice, D: Diam., T: Ind.
A fire targeted by Demon Expunging Flame will burn the immaterial forms of spirits with infernal might. Such a fire removes 5 might points from a spirit for every full health level done by the flames (immaterial spirits rarely have any way to soak damage but a fair number of have complete immunity to fire. Ranulf developed ths spell knowing full well that the law of the infernal greatly hindered his ability to target it effectively. The spell can target fires of sufficent heat to do up to +15 damage which would allow him to use it in conjunction with Pillum of fire and the patient spell or more frequently a wall of flame created by stockade of infernos.
(base 4, +2 voice, +1 diameter, +2 fires of up to +15 damage)

Thsi is just a bit less effective than demon's eternal oblivion and it's also so fitting for Ranulf's style, it expands the capabilities of school of the founder specialists and it synergyses with many of his other spells. I like it, but if see an issue with it please tell me. I'd rather be right than happy with something flawed.

[Erik_Tyrrell]

Second season of the year he'll create

Illumination of the Immaterial Form [Faerie]
MuIg(Vi) 25
R:Touch, Dur: Sun, T: Ind.
This spell targets the light produced by a single fire. This targeted light reflect off of and fail to pass through immaterial spirits possessing Faerie might. Observers can see bright spots at a spirit's location from the reflected glow of the targeted fire, providing that the spell penetrates the spirit's magic resistance. Immaterial magical spirits in the vicinity of the targeted which posses shapes also cast shadows whether or not the spell penetrates their magic resistance. Not all immaterial spirits have a shape to be illuminated and not all of those that do have a shape have a shape at all times. A similar spell could be created for each of the realms of power although it is unlikely that an infernal version would ever be of benefit to the caster.
(base 4, +1 touch, +2 sun, +2 magnitudes complexity, requisite is essential)

and

Faerie Burning Flame
MuIg(Vi) 25
R:Voice, D: Diam., T: Ind.
A fire targeted by Faerie Burning Flame will burn the immaterial forms of spirits with Faerie might. Such a fire removes 5 might points from a spirit for every full health level done by the flames (immaterial spirits rarely have any way to soak damage but a fair number of have complete immunity to fire). The spell can target fires of sufficient heat to do up to +15 damage which allows him to use it in conjunction with Pillum of fire and the patient spell, or more frequently a wall of flame created by stockade of infernos.
(base 4, +2 voice, +1 diameter, +2 fires of up to +15 damage)

[raccoonmask]

@Erik Tyrrell

At this point Ranulf's MuIg(Vi) lab total is 101, which means he can invent both Illumination of the immaterial form [magic] and a second twenty-fifth level spell that uses the same lab total. So he'll do this one as well.

Demon Expunging Flame
MuIg(Vi) 25
R:Voice, D: Diam., T: Ind.
A fire targeted by Demon Expunging Flame will burn the immaterial forms of spirits with infernal might. Such a fire removes 5 might points from a spirit for every full health level done by the flames (immaterial spirits rarely have any way to soak damage but a fair number of have complete immunity to fire. Ranulf developed ths spell knowing full well that the law of the infernal greatly hindered his ability to target it effectively. The spell can target fires of sufficent heat to do up to +15 damage which would allow him to use it in conjunction with Pillum of fire and the patient spell or more frequently a wall of flame created by stockade of infernos.
(base 4, +2 voice, +1 diameter, +2 fires of up to +15 damage)

Thsi is just a bit less effective than demon's eternal oblivion and it's also so fitting for Ranulf's style, it expands the capabilities of school of the founder specialists and it synergyses with many of his other spells. I like it, but if see an issue with it please tell me. I'd rather be right than happy with something flawed.

Hmm. I'm always super-cautious about using Muto to simulate other techniques (as you may have noticed with the illumination spell). I feel like Demon Expunging Flame needs a Perdo Requisite, just like giving a chicken the ability to breath fire requires Ignem. Though destroying Might requires perdo, you could argue that fire destroys things naturally, you're just giving it the ability to do it to Might. I'm somewhat torn back and forth on this. I really like the idea though.

[Erik_Tyrrell]

Would you (anyone here really, but Racoon Mask in particular) require a perdo requisite for a spell that made target fire able to burn marble? If not, I'd feel much better if I could clearly state why alteering a fire to do demon burning requires a perdo requisite while altering it to do marble burning doesn't.

Anyone else who would care to jump in with a thought relevant to perdo requisite or no perdo requisite would be most welcome.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

@Erik Tyrrell

Would you (anyone here really, but Racoon Mask in particular) require a perdo requisite for a spell that made target fire able to burn marble? If not, I'd feel much better if I could clearly state why alteering a fire to do demon burning requires a perdo requisite while altering it to do marble burning doesn't.

Anyone else who would care to jump in with a thought relevant to perdo requisite or no perdo requisite would be most welcome.

A fire able to burn marble is a straightforward CrIg. Sufficiently hot real fires can burn lots of 'inflammable' things.

A fire able to burn something that does not exist to be burned (a spirit's immaterial form by definition has no material to burn!) is probably a big problem. But if you allow this: How about MuIg(Me) for a fire that can set someone's anger ablaze, or burn to ashes the sentence he is about to say, or his memory of what he did yesterday?

Ranulf set my inhibitions on fire, and I felt so much better once I recovered from the third degree burns.

EDIT: sigh Although I'm sure we are due a MuIm(Ig) spell that can turn music into fire. Target the source of the music, and everyone who would hear it has to Soak the flames....

Anyway,

Ken

[jason72 (Jason)]

If Flambeau magi gossip about someone, do their ears burn?

[thebluespectre]

I thought Images couldn't be transformed into solid objects. You CAN turn fire into sound though...

[Erik_Tyrrell]

@Ovarwa

A fire able to burn marble is a straightforward CrIg. Sufficiently hot real fires can burn lots of 'inflammable' things.

Even if that were the case (which I don't think it is, CaCO[sub]3[/sub] melts around 825 C and, although it's been several years since I looked at p-chem I can't immediately think how CaCO[sub]3[/sub] + O[sub]2[/sub]-> "anything" comes out in an energetically favorable way. Granted Mythic Europe has an entirely different chemistry) being able to do something with CrIg doesn't mean that it can't also be done with MuIg.

A fire able to burn something that does not exist to be burned (a spirit's immaterial form by definition has no material to burn!) is probably a big problem. But if you allow this: How about MuIg(Me) for a fire that can set someone's anger ablaze, or burn to ashes the sentence he is about to say, or his memory of what he did yesterday?

So no necessity for a perdo requisite then. Just that my vision exceeds the limits of what Muto Ignem should be able to do.

Here's a counter argument because I like my spell: Hermetic muto magic can change a mind into a bird, and it can change a metal into a burst of images. These may not have been good ideas, I certainly think that a fire that can burn spirits is a less "out there" application. (Although the level for my spell is probably too low).

A defense based on my personal preference isn't exactly the solid argument that I'd hoped to present.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

@Erik Tyrrell

@Ovarwa

A fire able to burn marble is a straightforward CrIg. Sufficiently hot real fires can burn lots of 'inflammable' things.

Even if that were the case (which I don't think it is, CaCO[sub]3[/sub] melts around 825 C and, although it's been several years since I looked at p-chem I can't immediately think how CaCO[sub]3[/sub] + O[sub]2[/sub]-> "anything" comes out in an energetically favorable way. Granted Mythic Europe has an entirely different chemistry) being able to do something with CrIg doesn't mean that it can't also be done with MuIg.

Hmm. I suppose it's not strictly burning, but if you apply sufficient heat, it will decompose into CO2 and CaO, which is close enough to 'burning' for AM purposes.

But if it isn't, the MuIg is certainly not sufficient: The spell would need to be a straight MuTe and target the marble to make it flammable!

A fire able to burn something that does not exist to be burned (a spirit's immaterial form by definition has no material to burn!) is probably a big problem. But if you allow this: How about MuIg(Me) for a fire that can set someone's anger ablaze, or burn to ashes the sentence he is about to say, or his memory of what he did yesterday?

So no necessity for a perdo requisite then. Just that my vision exceeds the limits of what Muto Ignem should be able to do.

Here's a counter argument because I like my spell: Hermetic muto magic can change a mind into a bird, and it can change a metal into a burst of images. These may not have been good ideas, I certainly think that a fire that can burn spirits is a less "out there" application. (Although the level for my spell is probably too low).

These precedents are why I hedged ("probably a big problem" and "but if you allow this.")

As you point out, these may not have been good ideas.

But as you also point out, your spell is certainly not a worse idea.

And part of why I'm not sure any of these are a good idea is that I'm not sure transforming someone's memories of last Tuesday night into a swarm of hornets is a good idea. But maybe it is, and I just need to get with the program!

A defense based on my personal preference isn't exactly the solid argument that I'd hoped to present.

[/quote]

[/quote]
lol I kind of feel the same way about my own stance.

Anyway,

Ken

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

Of course, since we were at one point trying to circumvent Intellego, we can have a MuMe(An) that transforms every lie uttered into a badger, which to me is more amusing than transforming lies into fire, though perhaps less useful for Ranulf. Of course, he might prefer a Cr(Mu)Ig Conc/Room, which creates a fire that only burns lies spoken in the room.

considers

Maybe I do think this is worse than transforming a memory into a bird. At least that spell targets the memory. A spell that targets a spirit and makes it flammable seems pretty reasonable compared to a spell that transforms a fire so that it can burn things that do not burn.

Anyway,

Ken

[jason72 (Jason)]

MuIg(Vi) to make a fire that can burn a spirit?

versus

MuVi(Ig) to turn a spirit into a fire that can be controlled or extinguished? Or even made hotter/bigger? There are lots of example spells that do similar.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

@jason72

MuIg(Vi) to make a fire that can burn a spirit?

versus

MuVi(Ig) to turn a spirit into a fire that can be controlled or extinguished? Or even made hotter/bigger? There are lots of example spells that do similar.

The latter seems better to me. I can turn a person into a wolverine, so maybe I can also turn him into a fire, or the fire into a spirit, or a spirit into a fire.

But if spirits cannot burn by their very nature, if they implicitly have the equivalent of all sorts of immunities by virtue of lacking physical substance, then the former spell is in the same catogory as MuIg "transform this fire into a fire that ignores the Virtue of Immunity to Fire."

Anyway,

Ken

[Erik_Tyrrell]

@Ovarwa

Hi,

@Erik Tyrrell

@Ovarwa

A fire able to burn marble is a straightforward CrIg. Sufficiently hot real fires can burn lots of 'inflammable' things.

Even if that were the case (which I don't think it is, CaCO[sub]3[/sub] melts around 825 C and, although it's been several years since I looked at p-chem I can't immediately think how CaCO[sub]3[/sub] + O[sub]2[/sub]-> "anything" comes out in an energetically favorable way. Granted Mythic Europe has an entirely different chemistry) being able to do something with CrIg doesn't mean that it can't also be done with MuIg.

Hmm. I suppose it's not strictly burning, but if you apply sufficient heat, it will decompose into CO2 and CaO, which is close enough to 'burning' for AM purposes.

But if it isn't, the MuIg is certainly not sufficient: The spell would need to be a straight MuTe and target the marble to make it flammable!

We're still talking about an analogy to the actual spell I'm interested in here rather than the spell itself, but we disagree so I'll press further. Your statement "the MuIg is certainly not sufficient: The spell would need to be a straight MuTe" doesn't seem sensible to me. It's akin to saying you can't make an object float by increasing the density of the water, you can only do it by making the object lighter.

Why is changing the spirit reasonable and changing the fire not?

@Ovarwa

Of course, since we were at one point trying to circumvent Intellego, we can have a MuMe(An) that transforms every lie uttered into a badger, which to me is more amusing than transforming lies into fire, though perhaps less useful for Ranulf. Of course, he might prefer a Cr(Mu)Ig Conc/Room, which creates a fire that only burns lies spoken in the room.

Burning things is something a fire already does, telling lies from truth is not something that a fire or a muto spell does. This isn't a fair criticism.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

@Erik Tyrrell

@Ovarwa

Hi,

@Erik Tyrrell

@Ovarwa

A fire able to burn marble is a straightforward CrIg. Sufficiently hot real fires can burn lots of 'inflammable' things.

Even if that were the case (which I don't think it is, CaCO[sub]3[/sub] melts around 825 C and, although it's been several years since I looked at p-chem I can't immediately think how CaCO[sub]3[/sub] + O[sub]2[/sub]-> "anything" comes out in an energetically favorable way. Granted Mythic Europe has an entirely different chemistry) being able to do something with CrIg doesn't mean that it can't also be done with MuIg.

Hmm. I suppose it's not strictly burning, but if you apply sufficient heat, it will decompose into CO2 and CaO, which is close enough to 'burning' for AM purposes.

But if it isn't, the MuIg is certainly not sufficient: The spell would need to be a straight MuTe and target the marble to make it flammable!

We're still talking about an analogy to the actual spell I'm interested in here rather than the spell itself, but we disagree so I'll press further. Your statement "the MuIg is certainly not sufficient: The spell would need to be a straight MuTe" doesn't seem sensible to me. It's akin to saying you can't make an object float by increasing the density of the water, you can only do it by making the object lighter.

Why is changing the spirit reasonable and changing the fire not?

Because spirits have no substance and therefore cannot burn. The lack of physical substance is the essential difference between something that is spiritual and something that is not.

Because it's like using InIm to discern the sound of one hand clapping.

On the other hand, any physical object can float in a liquid of sufficient density, so changing the density of a liquid works just fine.

@Ovarwa

Of course, since we were at one point trying to circumvent Intellego, we can have a MuMe(An) that transforms every lie uttered into a badger, which to me is more amusing than transforming lies into fire, though perhaps less useful for Ranulf. Of course, he might prefer a Cr(Mu)Ig Conc/Room, which creates a fire that only burns lies spoken in the room.

Burning things is something a fire already does, telling lies from truth is not something that a fire or a muto spell does. This isn't a fair criticism.

Why not? A natural fire cannot 'detect wood' yet will burn wood and leave metal unharmed. Or, perhaps another way of looking at it: A fire can detect some lies... after all, it will burn a wooden sword painted to look like metal but not a real, metal sword; so changing it to also burn spoken lies isn't that much of a stretch.

Anyway,

Ken

[Ovarwa]

Hi

Continuing... in a different game, especially something like Nobilis, I'd see it differently. Impossible mixing of metaphors is an important part of that kind of magic. Of course Ignem can substitute for Mentem! Inquisitors use fire to discover the truth, bend people to their will and eliminate heretical ideas, so why not just use magic to eliminate the middleman?

(As for the sound of one hand clapping, there's a Nobilis campaign or three in the making.)

Anyway,

Ken