Actually, my take is that you shouldn't be able to do that. Sorry if it's unclear. I don't think you should be able to MuIg a fire to feed off granite unless the flame is hot enough to melt granite.
I find this bit odd - If the fire is burning the stone, then the stone should be affected. It has to be damaged in some way. (I'm not bothered by how hot the fire needs to be to melt stone, or if the spell allows the fire to unnnaturally consume stone).
This oddness is why I posted. But it isn't Racoonmask's intention.
He believes that, for the most part, one can not use Hermetic magic to alter a fire so that it can consume rocks, (which was only presented as an annalogy, Ranulf wanted to burn demons and faeries, not rocks). His take is that you have to change the rock to be burnable, you can not change the fire to have broader abilities. I can't (yet) clearly state his justifications but this may be my fault for not reading carefully.
Ovawara's (Ken's) take is that burning a spirit is not justified by inference from our understanding of muto and ignem. Immaterial spirits are not a material thing, (hence the name), twisting a fire to burn them is akin to altering one to burn a metaphysical concept. That's not the sort of thing that can be described as just changing a fire.
Are those fair characterizations? Or am I too close to the issue to see your sides clearly?
In any case, to repeat, I've been convinced that a MuIg(Vi) spell to burn spirits is too questionable to be included. I've got alternate plans and I'll get them up when my schedule permits.
Spells that prompt discussion are my goal here and, by that measure, Demon Expunging Flame is a clear success.
Hi,
Hmm. It's fair: Moreover, I think that in ME, being immaterial is a fundamental, even Essential, quality compared to being physical, and people are willing to kill and die over the implications of this distinction. However you change the fire to burn more things, a spirit fundamentally lacks any material to burn. Of course, if the spirit somehow becomes material, it can be burned. A metaphysical concept similarly cannot be burned (and is possibly the spirit of itself.)
There are some corner cases, of course! A miracle can burn a spirit. With God, all bets are off. And if you enter the Magic Realm, you might be able to burn a spirit, though that kind of burning is not burning as we know it, and you are not quite the same...
Achievement unlocked!
Anyway,
Ken
As a fascinated lurker I have found all of your magi-inventing-spells threads - and the resultant discussions - to be just fabulous. Thanks for thinking them up, pursuing them and coming back to them with fresh ideas!
I'm not contributing per see, merely pointing out that I would support this.
You cannot change a fire to urn an immaterial demon, because there's nothing to burn.
Miracles not withstanding (that's not really fire anyway, it just looks like fire) - and since the immaterial demons still have a location, even if it can be very extensive, you can use T: Room or T: Structure with Vim to target what you cannot see.
OK now moving on to a completely unrelated topic, how a about this one.
It's the guideline for demon's eternal oblivion, but with something akin to the sensory target Texture. I like special spell parameters, but
I think it is inappropriate to have them be exact emulations of parameters provided by virtues. I'm hoping that my spell is different enough that this isn't an issue.
I worded it to say that a material creature can avoid loss of might by soaking the fire damage, thereby making the spell more dangerous to immaterial spirits. But that's something I did because it's how I wanted the spell to work, not because I have some underlying model of how the spell functions where this particular quirk is justified and makes sense.
Hi,
It isn't completely unrelated!
Since the spirit is immaterial, the enchanted fire cannot come in contact with it because there is nothing to contact.
That said, aesthetically, I think a spell like this should be possible, as should a magic sword that harms a spirit when it passes through its location: Effectively, R:Touch even though no actual contact occurs. The precedent for this is the use of Touch for XxVi spells that deal with spells.
The spell might work better as a Merinita spell, D:Fire.... might Ranulf be tempted to learn some of their Secrets?
Regardless, I think the target is the fire, which is being enchanted. Ind rather than special. Either way, we are open to all sorts of fun and interesting spells, like Winds of Change MuCo(Au,An), which enchants a wind so that it transform every person that comes into contact with into a bunny. These really are fun and interesting spells, but if one is reasonable so is the other.
BTW, Part is +1 iirc, not +2?
I do think the level of the spell should be similar to what you have because of complexity, and/or the spell should be MuIg(PeVi) because it transforms a fire to have a PeVi effect.
Anyway,
Ken
Iām befuddled and loving these spells too. Kudos.
Iād argue that muto and Perdo can both alter a substance to an unnatural state. Muto guideline often measure that in slightly or highly unnatural.
A fire burning oil is normal, wine a little strange, and water is highly unnatural. But if a stone can be made incorporeal or weightless why canāt a fire burn stone, yes highly unnatural, but still?
That said I donāt like it also affecting incorporeal things without a requisite. I canāt ward against ghosts without Mentum so the fire canāt hurt one either. I know you chose Vim, but is that due to the PeVi spells for might draining?
Edit: wards with vim wasnāt the best example but I hope the point makes a little sense.
I think the biggest reason you don't have a good sense of my justification is because I'm still building them towards coherence. It starts with 'that just doesn't feel right', and builds towards something more cognizant as I work through similar ideas and angles. Sometimes, my initial feelings get overturned.
I think some of my unclarity is because of the fire, and it's simple purpose to burn. While it may seem Muto Ignem changes the fire to burn something else, I feel you should be affecting the rocks to BE burned. A slightly absurd comparison would be casting a Muto Terram spell on a breadknife to cut off a slice of castle rampart; or casting Muto Terram on a spear so that it can draw blood from a wooden door.
This is, in essence, just a feeling on how the system should work in my mind. I have no real evidence backing it up. It just feels like you're casting the spell on the wrong target to get the effect.
Starting over without the spirit burning spells, the first season Ranulf will invent the following two spells:
The second season he'll craft a demon warding spell. The ward against a creature of [realm] ReVi guideline is odd in that it says ward against a creature of might equal to or less than the spell level, but Circular Ward Against Demons has range touch, and duration ring yet it wards against creatures of the level of the spell rather than the level of the spell -15. I'm going to use base level +15 for warding, presuming that the core book was just being obtuse in assuming that all wards were going to be touch/ring/circle and therefore writing the guidelines sloppily.
Ranulf's casting total at his present age would be 63 + die roll, so he'd get the most utility out of the spell at level 40. His Rego Vim lab total (with his focus) is sufficient without bringing in Artisano to help.
Do you disagree with my take on the guidline?
I made the mistake of being too vocal about the earlier spells, and now I feel obligated to comment more, as if pretending to know what I'm talking about.
I don't think there are any guideline problems, though you may worry about the infernal throwing effects around the flames if the target is not fully immolated.
Bonus points if used in conjunction with Self Immolation.
Or assumption of the Fiery Mantle!- it's a MuCo(Ig) spell that does what first comes to mind when one thinks MuCo(Ig) spell.
I'm three pages in to the 151-165 period and I haven't even got a single year done. I'll finish off the last two seasons of year 151 here.
Ranulf's lab total is
Perdo 15
Vim 25
Intelligence +2
Magic Theory 13
Aura +3
similar spell +2
Artisano intelligence +2
Artisano Magic Theory 9
Lab general quality +2
lab spell specialization bonus +3
76, Ranulf spends one season inventing Chamber of Magic Discomfort, Chamber of Faerie Discomfort, and Chamber of Infernal Discomfort all at level 12.
During Ranulf's fourth season he'll create a spell to give him a room target, one that doesn't require concentration (ala stockade of Infernos), one that has no holes in it, that creates it wherever he wants a room, and whenever he wants a room.
Because the spell is lower than level 50 he won't need Artisano's help.
Creo 16
Magical focus 16
Ignem 35
Intelligence +2
Magic Theory 13
Aura +3
Lab general quality +2
lab spell specialization bonus +3
Laboratory Ignem bonus +7
I don't think that these are going to be particularly controversial but I've been wrong before.
Circular ward against demons says:
So you can clearly effect and infernal ghost without another requisite. Would you not allow a circlar ward against magic to work against ghosts? Do you allow Demon's eternal oblivian to target any creature with infernal might or just demons?
As to your question, Yes, I used the guideline from the might draining spells.
The Vim guidelines appear to generally be symmetric for all four Realms.
This has come up enough in my homegame that we have a written clarification (I think?) to the following effect:
A Re(Fo) Ward (eg. ReIg) wards against creatures with a Might score associated with the relevant form, regardless of Realm.
ReVi Wards ward against all entities associated with a single (specific) Realm (ie. Magic or Infernal).
So yes, that would work at our table.
Unless you invented the spell using a Magical Focus, Potent Magic or experimentation with a result stating otherwise, obviously.
That's one year doing more fire stuff. Now, as I said way back when I started the Adelbert thread in 2013, I'm pretty much done with making ignem spells that Ranulf would reasonably choose to spend his time on. There are a few more he'd want, and there are of course a ton more possible, but there is nothing which rises to the level of being in the top ten thing's he'd find useful.
Having, in the time since I set Ranulf aside, created Adelbert and Andreva and worked with the other authors through the other Anulus Connectens magi (if you're not familiar with them they're here: https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/anulus-connectens-magi-of-hermes-covenant/10506/1) I've come back to him with some different ideas about magi. Of importance here is my opinion that it is revealing to think of the magical progression of an OoH magi in three stages:
*First period, The character has many glaring holes in their abilities and they need to see to them. The magus has to struggle to do the things that the player wanted to do when they envisioned the character. There are lots of things that they need to learn and they need to learn them right now.
*Second period, the character can relax, they've developed what magic/arts/abilities they need to function they've already somewhat fulfilled the vision that were set up to achieve. They spend their time really developing stuff relevant to their interests. I find this period the most fun to design for. Earlier in their life I keep thinking of spells and effects for them to make but I'm constantly running into the character's limitations and the creations of the characters tend to reflect the way that the character could get the job done rather than the way that would be the most cool.
*Third period, they've gone as far down their path as one would care to, and they should do something else.
We saw the third period hit the Anulus Connectens magi as they approached 90 years out of apprenticeship and the other authors had difficulty coming up with more projects for their magi to engage in. Andreva finished developing a reasonable suite of stuff related to swords and underground spaces around 60 years out (Terram is exceedingly practical) and then moved into a new path of developing stuff to survive a wizard's war. Adelbert had a sufficiently deep repertoire of investigation tools at 90 years out of apprenticeship and he moved into animals. Ranulf pursued a goal of using unnatural fires to accomplish as many tasks as possible, that's a frightfully difficult thing to do so I think that it took Ranulf a lot longer to reach that third stage of "enough has been done with this, he should move on to something else". Nevertheless, Ranulf has hit that point and I'm going to take him in a different direction.
With that second period completed it doesn't make sense for me to develop Ranulf without a prominent goal and plan. Without this, asking the question of what abilities, spells, and enchanted items would he develop at this point in his life isn't satisfying because he's really got what he needs available to him already.
During the 90-105 period I had Ranulf challenge to become an Archmagus and fail to beat a Tytalus magus who bested him by being more devious. Being more devious than Ranulf with his Societates Milites attitudes probably isn't that hard. I'm going to have him try again.
I didn't go back and reread their material, but as I recall archmagi are a group that interact with one another and tend to work for the benefit of the order. This, of course, serves their needs because they benefit greatly from the order, but I imagine that they frequently think of it in a magnanimous way, that they are doing a great service to their fellows. As I see it, the archmagi as a group benefit from having more archmagi (providing that they're the right sort of people). But, as an archmagus, you don't want to be personally bested in your challenge, you'd much prefer that, if there are magi worthy of inclusion, they best someone else and leave your reputation unspoiled. Yet if everyone makes their challenge too hard then there are no new archmagi and everyone suffers. I think that there is some social pressure within the group to make challenges where the worthy could succeed with effort. Setting so difficult a challenge that no one can ever beat you could be seen as prideful and selfish.
There is a Tremere Archamga who in her career has focused on magical spirits and creatures. She has written several books regarding such creatures and spirits. Her archmagus challenge is to get a spirit or creature of her choice to serve her for a year. Ranulf has at some point earlier in his life paged through a copy of one of her books while at some other covenant. In doing so he read about Olbrecht's Sky Drake (https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/5th-ed-opinions/108/1) and noted that this creature was a real nightmare for him personally in that it could dispell ignem magic at will, it was completely immune to fire, it was invisible, and it could not be easily located. When this maga set her Archmagus challenge Ranulf remembered the passage and thought it very likely that if he were to challenge the Tremere she would ask him to acquire the sky drake. Ranulf still had friends who believed that they'd like his voice among the archmagi and he's getting up there in years. It wouldn't do to have him earn the distinction and then be lost to twilight a mere two years later. Ranulf quietly started developing a collection of spells and devices to allow him to beat the sky drake, thinking that even if she chose some other target he'd benefit from being able to pursue the quarry with a different set of tools, tools unknown to her.
Considering that I've already done one year and that I have a long list of things to do I'll hold Ranulf to just eight years of study this period. That's 240 xp.
Penetration to 7 for 35
Parma to 8 for 40
Muto to 22 for 43
Auram to 16 for 121
and one final xp in ignem (changed to 2 by his affinity) to make it 32 +11 xp
The auram focus is to facilitate a lot of spells dealing with smoke. It isn't a thing that he has bonuses with but it is adjacent to his fire stuff. It's a big change in terms of arts but it isn't too great of a thematic leap. Also auram is the least used art, It would be good to see some development with it.
Taking in to account that he's already spent four seasons doing fire stuff above, he'll have 24 seasons left for lab work. He'll need two seasons off to work with another magi of a similar age on a longevity ritual so that brings me down to 22 seasons to work with. I didn't check lab totals beforehand, but I'm pretty sure that I can fit in everything that he wants to get done, with a few seasons left for miscellaneous projects.
Artisano also gets xp for this 8 year chunk of time
Magic Theory to 10 for 75 xp
Magic Lore to 6 for 55 xp
Charm to 3 for 25 xp
Brawl to 7 for 35 xp
Organization Lore; Order of Hermes to 2 for 10 xp
First season, with the help of Artisano, he invents this
Can this trap a creature with MR without penetrating? I think so. That brings us to the question of a finesse roll.
If Raanulf has a large cloud and a comparatively small creature within it, say 50 paces from the nearest edge, can we justify not trapping the creature even on a finesse botch?