Ranulf from MoH now 150 years post apprentice!!!!

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

@Erik Tyrrell

First season, with the help of Artisano, he invents this

Resilient Smoke
MuAu 35
R: Voice, D: Moon, T: Ind.
Resilient Smoke targets a single cloud, (of either smoke or water vapor) which is small enough to fit within a standard boundary. For the duration of the spell the targeted cloud becomes as hard as oak. The targeted cloud's shape freezes in place and requires effort equivalent to the use of axes and saws to be altered. Unless the cloud is entangled with the ground or some heavy object it still rises and falls in the atmosphere as if its nature were unchanged. In Ranulf's version of the spell the targeted cloud becomes significantly lighter in color.
(Base 10, +2 voice, +3 moon)

Can this trap a creature with MR without penetrating? I think so. That brings us to the question of a finesse roll.

If Raanulf has a large cloud and a comparatively small creature within it, say 50 paces from the nearest edge, can we justify not trapping the creature even on a finesse botch?

Yes, though the creature has a tiny bit of wiggle room iirc.

On a Finesse botch, we can justify almost anything! For example, "You intended to manipulate the spell you were casting, but actually targeted a completely different cloud." Oops. Or dispelled the spell you just cast. Or moved the cloud to smash into you. Or something.

Anyway,

Ken

[Erik_Tyrrell]

So given the situation where a creature is deep within the targeted cloud, you'd have the caster roll an aiming roll (despite the fact that nothing is aimed) and let the creature escape only in the case of a botch? I suppose that we'd say that there is a bonus to the aiming roll at least as large as the ease factor but that amounts to the same thing.

I think that this is the most appropriate way to respect the rule that if a spell isn't resisted it must be aimed. So I'd kind of agree with that decision.

But if I were at the table with my friends respecting that rule isn't my highest priority. I might let the target make an athletics check with a high ease factor if I could see a way for them to possibly reach an edge of the cloud. If it were a non-stress situation I might not even have the magus player make an aiming roll.

There are a few situations where the rule where a spell that isn't resisted needs an aiming roll doesn't provide believable results. I don't like spells that can't realistically fail either, they aren't as likely to lead to fun stories as ones that can fail.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

Not raw, but I would prefer MR to apply to this. I agree that an aiming roll seems silly.

Anyway,

Ken

[Erik_Tyrrell]

Magic Resistance doesn't make sense to me from an in setting perspective. The spell targets smoke that's outside of the parma, how can the parma stop it?

[raccoonmask]

Thoughts: If you have a creature with MR (We'll call him Bob the Dragon) and you want to trap Bob, clearly shackles of ice would be resisted by MR, correct? What about if you just summoned/Muto a wall of ice/stone surrounding him, with Bob in the middle? does the wall just have a Bob-hole in it? Do you need to roll finesse to capture him in a summoned cage?
if you don't need to 'aim' and your changes can't be resisted by MR, what happens? in my game, sometimes I don't bother resistance (yes, the magic squirrel just gets captured in your 90-foot wide close-weave net) but if there's any level of contention, usually I let the 'resisting' creature roll athletics or an appropriate skill to jump out of the way of the pit, run out from under the net, or pull free of the mud-wall before it collapses on top of him. Seems the simplest solution. I admit I'm very curious as to the more experienced peoples' thoughts.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

@Erik Tyrrell

Magic Resistance doesn't make sense to me from an in setting perspective. The spell targets smoke that's outside of the parma, how can the parma stop it?

It's not RAW for sure. It's not at all the way MR is described.

But it's targeting smoke in contact with the victim. Or, a slightly different spell, is cleverly only targeting the smoke that's not quite in contact with the victim.

I feel quite comfortable with a version of MR that boils down to animism: When a spell is cast, any angel/spirit/whatevers that would be aware of the spellcasting or of the effect, especially those associated with victims and their MR (because everything has an angel/spirit!) get asked "Hey, do you have a problem with this?" And if there are, then an appropriate amount of MR is applied.

This is how Auras would work too: The bonuses and penalties for an Aura represent the aggregate action of various (usually minor) entities helping and hindering supernatural effects.

Magi who don't see the world in terms of animism can come up with their own explanations. (Magic Resistance partakes of the essence of magic, which is the realm of perfect possible things that fall short of the transcendence of God, so of course it is going to resist effects that its possessor would want to be resisted and not resist effects its possessor would not want to be resisted, because anything less would be less, and just using the same reasoning that Anselm used to prove the existence of God, it is clear that this superior resistance can exist, so therefore it does.)

I'd be changing some of the mechanics too.

The result would be a magic resistance that runs less like a computer program with bugs and loopholes and more like magic.

Things like pink dots and the distinction between aimed vs resisted kind of go away: Just ask the player if he wants MR to apply.

Anyway,

Ken

[Ovarwa]

Hi

Note that the last post in not RAW! By RAW the victims are trapped, no resistance. A Finesse roll might not just represent precise Aiming, but also not telegraphing what is about to happen to potential victims giving them more time to escape, or not fumbling under stress.

But there's precedence for spells that don't require Finesse rolls to suddenly need them when there are potential victims. Gaping Pit, for example, does not require a Finesse roll....

Anyway,

Ken

[Erik_Tyrrell]

Second season he'll invent this

Candle Cloud
MuAu(Ig) 25
R: Voice, D: Moon, T: Ind.
a target cloud (typically a cloud of smoke) is transformed into a small flame, the size of a flame in a lantern. Ranulf created this spell so as to be able to keep a ready supply of sufficiently large clouds available to work with. By storing the clouds as flames he is able to use his repertoire of Ignem spells on them, most importantly, Flames that Leap Leagues.
(base 4, +2 voice, +3 moon)

and because he has a big laboratory total he'll also do this

Wading in the Currents of of Smoke
MuIg(Au) 15
R: Voice, D: Diam., T: Ind
The fire targeted by this spell generates an inordinate amount of smoke. The smoke that it generates is especially heavy. This smoke rapidly spreads out over an area centered on the target fire filling about 15 square paces per turn to a around knee height. The feet and legs of invisible creatures would typically (if anything involving invisible targets cold be described as typical) be apparent as holes in this carpet of smoke. This spell can not target fires of exceptional heat (greater than +5 damage) such as many of the Fires that Ranulf creates with his magic.
(Base 4, +2 Voice, +1 Diameter)

In the multiple laboratory activities section of the lab chapter is says "All lab activities must use the same technique and form". These two spells use the same technique and form to determine the lab total, but they do not have the same technique and form as spells. Would you allow it?

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

@Erik Tyrrell

Second season he'll invent this

Candle Cloud
MuAu(Ig) 25
R: Voice, D: Moon, T: Ind.
a target cloud (typically a cloud of smoke) is transformed into a small flame, the size of a flame in a lantern. Ranulf created this spell so as to be able to keep a ready supply of sufficiently large clouds available to work with. By storing the clouds as flames he is able to use his repertoire of Ignem spells on them, most importantly, Flames that Leap Leagues.
(base 4, +2 voice, +3 moon)

and because he has a big laboratory total he'll also do this

Wading in the Currents of of Smoke
MuIg(Au) 15
R: Voice, D: Diam., T: Ind
The fire targeted by this spell generates an inordinate amount of smoke. The smoke that it generates is especially heavy. This smoke rapidly spreads out over an area centered on the target fire filling about 15 square paces per turn to a around knee height. The feet and legs of invisible creatures would typically (if anything involving invisible targets cold be described as typical) be apparent as holes in this carpet of smoke. This spell can not target fires of exceptional heat (greater than +5 damage) such as many of the Fires that Ranulf creates with his magic.
(Base 4, +2 Voice, +1 Diameter)

In the multiple laboratory activities section of the lab chapter is says "All lab activities must use the same technique and form". These two spells use the same technique and form to determine the lab total, but they do not have the same technique and form as spells. Would you allow it?

Maybe?

But the second spell needs a Mu requisite, and needs +1 magnitude twice: You are changing the fire to generate more smoke, and you are changing the smoke to be especially heavy. At this point, you start controlling the smoke. Base might change too.

Anyway,

Ken

[Erik_Tyrrell]

@Ovarwa

Hi,

But the second spell needs a Mu requisite,

Requisite? Muto is the only technique (I corrected it, Rego was a typo)

and needs +1 magnitude twice: You are changing the fire to generate more smoke, and you are changing the smoke to be especially heavy. At this point, you start controlling the smoke.

I assume that you're going from the technique typo, if it's a straight Muto spell you'd want a one magnitude bump to include both increased production of smoke and increased density of the smoke produced.

so this:

Wading in the Currents of of Smoke
MuIg(Au)20
R: Voice, D: Diam., T: Ind
The fire targeted by this spell generates an inordinate amount of smoke. The smoke that it generates is especially heavy. This smoke rapidly spreads out over an area centered on the target fire filling approximately 20 square paces per turn to a around knee height. The feet and legs of invisible creatures would typically (if anything involving invisible targets cold be described as typical) be apparent as holes in this carpet of smoke. This spell can not target fires of exceptional heat (greater than +5 damage) such as many of the Fires that Ranulf creates with his magic.
(Base 4, +2 Voice, +1 Diameter, +1 increased smoke production)

[Ovarwa]

The spell specifies where the smoke goes, so it also needs Rego.

[Erik_Tyrrell]

@Ovarwa

The spell specifies where the smoke goes, so it also needs Rego.

I apologize for my insufficiently clear description. The spell doesn't control the smoke, it makes unnaturally heavy smoke that sticks near the ground because it's too heavy to rise. The spell is changing the smoke, not controlling it.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

@Erik Tyrrell

@Ovarwa

The spell specifies where the smoke goes, so it also needs Rego.

I apologize for my insufficiently clear description. The spell doesn't control the smoke, it makes unnaturally heavy smoke that sticks near the ground because it's too heavy to rise. The spell is changing the smoke, not controlling it.

"This smoke rapidly spreads out over an area centered on the target fire filling approximately 20 square paces per turn to a around knee height."

What if there's wind? Why doesn't the smoke also accumulate upward, rather than always billow out at the same rate? What if the source fire is way up high... or way down low? Etc.

Given the specifications, I assumed that you intended Rego, because even heavy smoke should not behave so precisely without something making it do so. I would expect real heavy smoke to also pile up near its source and push out, creating an effect far less suitable for finding invisible people... unless they start coughing because of the smoke! /2

Anyway,

Ken

[Erik_Tyrrell]

Wading in the Currents of of Smoke
MuIg(Au)20
R: Voice, D: Diam., T: Ind
The fire targeted by this spell generates an inordinate amount of smoke. The smoke that it generates is especially heavy and collects in low places. This smoke rapidly spreads out over an area centered on the fire. In conditions with little wind and a fire located on flat unobstructed ground the smoke creates a fairly flat circular mound that expands in all directions (averaging ten times as wide as it is high), with wind, the affected area becomes more oval or even, in high winds, linear. This heavier smoke is transported less easily by winds than mundane smoke, it moves only as third as fast. The feet and legs of invisible creatures might well be apparent as holes in this carpet of smoke. This spell can not target fires of exceptional heat (greater than +5 damage) such as many of the Fires that Ranulf creates with his magic.
(Base 4, +2 Voice, +1 Diameter, +1 increased smoke production)

Better? I never intended the smoke to behave precisely.

[Ovarwa]

Yeah.

Another variant might be to have the spell let the heavy smoke 'behave naturally', and then add a codicil decribing how Ranulf can sometimes use the spell to detect invisible things at ground level.

Two tendencies I notice in effect design (which you did not intend here) are to sneak in Rego effects and to sneak in Form requisites.

So we get ReHe spells that let a magus fly (um, no; the magus needs to make non-Finesse rolls to hold on for dear life or to keep it from leaving his grasp or from walloping his nethers, if the spell even lets the broomstick move when it is held in place by the 'rider'; you need Corpus to move a magus with magic, though an enchanted broomstick ought to provide a fine bonus for flying effects). We get spells that create things and then specify exactly how they behave, etc, or describe how people must react to a magical effect without any Re or Me in the effect.

Anyway,

Ken

[Erik_Tyrrell]

@Ovarwa

Another variant might be to have the spell let the heavy smoke 'behave naturally', and then add a codicil describing how Ranulf can sometimes use the spell to detect invisible things at ground level.

Arrgh! that's the story that I am trying to to get across!

@Ovarwa

.. we get ReHe spells that let a magus fly (um, no; the magus needs to make non-Finesse rolls to hold on for dear life or to keep it from leaving his grasp or from walloping his nethers, if the spell even lets the broomstick move when it is held in place by the 'rider'; you need Corpus to move a magus with magic, though an enchanted broomstick ought to provide a fine bonus for flying effects). We get spells that create things and then specify exactly how they behave, etc, or describe how people must react to a magical effect without any Re or Me in the effect.

So Ranulf's plan to

1. shape a cloud into a convenient form with some yet to be described Rego Auram spell ,
2. use Resilient Smoke (from the last page) to make it solid, and
3. use another as of yet undescribed Rego Auram spell to ride it about the stratosphere like a combination yacht/helicopter/rocketship is going to get some serious scrutiny?

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

@Erik Tyrrell

@Ovarwa

Another variant might be to have the spell let the heavy smoke 'behave naturally', and then add a codicil decribing how Ranulf can sometimes use the spell to detect invisible things at ground level.

that's what I was trying to say!

I get that now. EG:

The fire targeted by this spell continually generates an inordinate amount of especially dense smoke for the duration of both fire and spell. This smoke behaves naturally, likely to descend rapidly as it forced away from its source, collecting on the ground and in low places. Under favorable ground and wind conditions, Ranulf, the inventor of this spell, uses it to detect the feet and legs of invisible creatures as holes within a carpet of smoke. This spell can not target fires of exceptional heat (greater than +5 damage) such as many of the Fires that Ranulf creates with his magic.

@Ovarwa

.. we get ReHe spells that let a magus fly (um, no; the magus needs to make non-Finesse rolls to hold on for dear life or to keep it from leaving his grasp or from walloping his nethers, if the spell even lets the broomstick move when it is held in place by the 'rider'; you need Corpus to move a magus with magic, though an enchanted broomstick ought to provide a fine bonus for flying effects). We get spells that create things and then specify exactly how they behave, etc, or describe how people must react to a magical effect without any Re or Me in the effect.

So Ranulf's plan to 1. shape a cloud into a convenient form with some yet to be described rego Auram spell , 2. use Resilient Smoke (from the last page) to make it solid, and 3. use another as of yet undescribed Rego Auram spell to ride it about the stratosphere like a combination yacht/helicopter/rocketship is going to get some serious scrutiny?
[/quote]
1 is fine. 2 is fine. 3 depends on what he shapes the smoke into.

Let's go back to ReHe to see what I mean.

I can use ReHe to move a broomstick, but I can also use it to move a ship (let's have all the pegs be wood, etc.). Neither spell lets me affect Corpus. But it seems reasonable that magus standing on the ship will usually move with the ship. He might have to make various Ability rolls (not Finesse) if the ship moves in interesting ways, similar to the rolls he might have to make for a ship propelled by oars, current or wind rather than magic. A GM might rule that magic cannot move the ship at all while the magus stands on its deck, but might very reasonably rule that the magus is so much smaller than the ship, that the magus moves with it. Unless the deck is slippery, of course, in which case the magus will probably slide out from under the ship unless he grabs onto something! Finesse might be used to move the ship gently, which would provide easier target numbers for the magus, but of course the ship would then be moving slower and would not be making sharp maneuvers.

OTOH, a ReHe spell strong enough to propel a broomstick even while it is held by a magus between his legs and in his hands will almost certainly wrench itself out of his hands, leaving nasty splinters. I would not want that thing between my legs! Ouch! Especially as the broomstick rises at how many miles per hour? Finesse can make the broomstick move slowly, but then it cannot drag the magus. Really, the only thing keeping the magus from falling off his his grip, not Finesse. Staying on the thing takes immense concentration and is a great feat of athletic prowess. Want to make things easy for the magus? ReHe(Co). But of course, ReCo is just easier, as a spell.

So, if you turn a cloud solid and shape it, you have a rather large platform, perhaps with seats. If you move the thing, the magus is probably fine, until you want some extreme maneuvers, at which point Finesse is useful for performing the manuevers, but the magus needs to make some other kind of roll to deal with it.

Of course, I would require a MuAu spell that made Auram solid to take a Te requisite, and to satisfy the Te size requirements. Solidity is the essence of Terram, after all, and the property of the cloud or smoke that is being changed is from Auram to Terram.

So there is that.

Anyway,

Ken

[Erik_Tyrrell]

@Ovarwa

Of course, I would require a MuAu spell that made Auram solid to take a Te requisite, and to satisfy the Te size requirements. Solidity is the essence of Terram, after all, and the property of the cloud or smoke that is being changed is from Auram to Terram.

So there is that.

You missed the lack of requisite 11 posts ago.

Resilient Smoke
MuAu 35
R: Voice, D: Moon, T: Ind.
Resilient Smoke targets a single cloud, (of either smoke or water vapor) which is small enough to fit within a standard boundary. For the duration of the spell the targeted cloud becomes as hard as oak. The targeted cloud's shape freezes in place and requires effort equivalent to the use of axes and saws to be altered. Unless the cloud is entangled with the ground or some heavy object it still rises and falls in the atmosphere as if its nature were unchanged. In Ranulf's version of the spell the targeted cloud becomes significantly lighter in color.
(Base 10, +2 voice, +3 moon)

I looked at the the spells index for some examples
Here are three spells that seem to grant solidity without a Terram requisite:
Sculpt the Living Water and
Neptune's Imprisoning Arms from GoTF p. 96 (the second spell is repeated in TtA p.12)
Rainbow Bridge from Magi of Hermes p.122

I did not find examples where there's a terram requisite that only makes things solid without also changing the material's substance. (but I'm human, and humans suck at finding things that they don't want to find.)

[Ovarwa]

Hi,

@Erik Tyrrell

@Ovarwa

Of course, I would require a MuAu spell that made Auram solid to take a Te requisite, and to satisfy the Te size requirements. Solidity is the essence of Terram, after all, and the property of the cloud or smoke that is being changed is from Auram to Terram.

So there is that.

You missed the lack of requisite 11 posts ago.

Probably! I'm not doing all that well at the "serious scrutiny" bit.

Resilient Smoke
MuAu 35
R: Voice, D: Moon, T: Ind.
Resilient Smoke targets a single cloud, (of either smoke or water vapor) which is small enough to fit within a standard boundary. For the duration of the spell the targeted cloud becomes as hard as oak. The targeted cloud's shape freezes in place and requires effort equivalent to the use of axes and saws to be altered. Unless the cloud is entangled with the ground or some heavy object it still rises and falls in the atmosphere as if its nature were unchanged. In Ranulf's version of the spell the targeted cloud becomes significantly lighter in color.
(Base 10, +2 voice, +3 moon)

I looked at the the spells index for some examples
Here are three spells that seem to grant solidity without a Terram requisite:
Sculpt the Living Water and Neptune's Imprisoning Arms from GoTF p96 (the second spell is repeated in TtA p.12)
Rainbow Bridge from Magi of Hermes p.122

I did not find examples where there's a terram requisite that only makes things solid without also changing the material's substance. (but I'm human, and humans suck at finding things that they don't want to find.)

Or, you might be right, RAI, and I might be just plain wrong. I admit that I consider any spell outside of the core rules in the same group as spells designed on this forum or on someone's saga website, in need of similar oversight. (I also acknowledge that I am not an Authority, and that my opinion is no better than other folks'.)

It's just that I would similarly find it weird to use MuTe to grant something the property of being extremely hot without the use of Ignem, or to use PeTe rather than PeIg to remove the property of being hot from molten iron.

Or to create something that is in all respects a tiger, except that I declare it to actually be granite, so that the only Form involved is Te, and my Minor Focus applies.

Anyway,

Ken

[Tellus]

@Erik Tyrrell

In the multiple laboratory activities section of the lab chapter is says "All lab activities must use the same technique and form". These two spells use the same technique and form to determine the lab total, but they do not have the same technique and form as spells. Would you allow it?

I wouldn't be happy to.
I would probably try to pull in my entire troupe to discuss the matter. Fail. Discuss it with the one or two others who might care to voice an opinion and then write down the result somewhere.
It could go either way, but it's something that I'm not completely comfortable about.