Ranulf from MoH now 150 years post apprentice!!!!

I made the mistake of being too vocal about the earlier spells, and now I feel obligated to comment more, as if pretending to know what I'm talking about.
I don't think there are any guideline problems, though you may worry about the infernal throwing effects around the flames if the target is not fully immolated.

Bonus points if used in conjunction with Self Immolation.

Or assumption of the Fiery Mantle!- it's a MuCo(Ig) spell that does what first comes to mind when one thinks MuCo(Ig) spell.

I'm three pages in to the 151-165 period and I haven't even got a single year done. I'll finish off the last two seasons of year 151 here.

Ranulf's lab total is
Perdo 15
Vim 25
Intelligence +2
Magic Theory 13
Aura +3
similar spell +2
Artisano intelligence +2
Artisano Magic Theory 9
Lab general quality +2
lab spell specialization bonus +3
76, Ranulf spends one season inventing Chamber of Magic Discomfort, Chamber of Faerie Discomfort, and Chamber of Infernal Discomfort all at level 12.

During Ranulf's fourth season he'll create a spell to give him a room target, one that doesn't require concentration (ala stockade of Infernos), one that has no holes in it, that creates it wherever he wants a room, and whenever he wants a room.
Because the spell is lower than level 50 he won't need Artisano's help.
Creo 16
Magical focus 16
Ignem 35
Intelligence +2
Magic Theory 13
Aura +3
Lab general quality +2
lab spell specialization bonus +3
Laboratory Ignem bonus +7

I don't think that these are going to be particularly controversial but I've been wrong before.

Circular ward against demons says:

So you can clearly effect and infernal ghost without another requisite. Would you not allow a circlar ward against magic to work against ghosts? Do you allow Demon's eternal oblivian to target any creature with infernal might or just demons?

As to your question, Yes, I used the guideline from the might draining spells.

The Vim guidelines appear to generally be symmetric for all four Realms.

This has come up enough in my homegame that we have a written clarification (I think?) to the following effect:
A Re(Fo) Ward (eg. ReIg) wards against creatures with a Might score associated with the relevant form, regardless of Realm.
ReVi Wards ward against all entities associated with a single (specific) Realm (ie. Magic or Infernal).

So yes, that would work at our table.
Unless you invented the spell using a Magical Focus, Potent Magic or experimentation with a result stating otherwise, obviously.

That's one year doing more fire stuff. Now, as I said way back when I started the Adelbert thread in 2013, I'm pretty much done with making ignem spells that Ranulf would reasonably choose to spend his time on. There are a few more he'd want, and there are of course a ton more possible, but there is nothing which rises to the level of being in the top ten thing's he'd find useful.

Having, in the time since I set Ranulf aside, created Adelbert and Andreva and worked with the other authors through the other Anulus Connectens magi (if you're not familiar with them they're here: https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/anulus-connectens-magi-of-hermes-covenant/10506/1) I've come back to him with some different ideas about magi. Of importance here is my opinion that it is revealing to think of the magical progression of an OoH magi in three stages:

*First period, The character has many glaring holes in their abilities and they need to see to them. The magus has to struggle to do the things that the player wanted to do when they envisioned the character. There are lots of things that they need to learn and they need to learn them right now.
*Second period, the character can relax, they've developed what magic/arts/abilities they need to function they've already somewhat fulfilled the vision that were set up to achieve. They spend their time really developing stuff relevant to their interests. I find this period the most fun to design for. Earlier in their life I keep thinking of spells and effects for them to make but I'm constantly running into the character's limitations and the creations of the characters tend to reflect the way that the character could get the job done rather than the way that would be the most cool.
*Third period, they've gone as far down their path as one would care to, and they should do something else.

We saw the third period hit the Anulus Connectens magi as they approached 90 years out of apprenticeship and the other authors had difficulty coming up with more projects for their magi to engage in. Andreva finished developing a reasonable suite of stuff related to swords and underground spaces around 60 years out (Terram is exceedingly practical) and then moved into a new path of developing stuff to survive a wizard's war. Adelbert had a sufficiently deep repertoire of investigation tools at 90 years out of apprenticeship and he moved into animals. Ranulf pursued a goal of using unnatural fires to accomplish as many tasks as possible, that's a frightfully difficult thing to do so I think that it took Ranulf a lot longer to reach that third stage of "enough has been done with this, he should move on to something else". Nevertheless, Ranulf has hit that point and I'm going to take him in a different direction.

With that second period completed it doesn't make sense for me to develop Ranulf without a prominent goal and plan. Without this, asking the question of what abilities, spells, and enchanted items would he develop at this point in his life isn't satisfying because he's really got what he needs available to him already.

During the 90-105 period I had Ranulf challenge to become an Archmagus and fail to beat a Tytalus magus who bested him by being more devious. Being more devious than Ranulf with his Societates Milites attitudes probably isn't that hard. I'm going to have him try again.

I didn't go back and reread their material, but as I recall archmagi are a group that interact with one another and tend to work for the benefit of the order. This, of course, serves their needs because they benefit greatly from the order, but I imagine that they frequently think of it in a magnanimous way, that they are doing a great service to their fellows. As I see it, the archmagi as a group benefit from having more archmagi (providing that they're the right sort of people). But, as an archmagus, you don't want to be personally bested in your challenge, you'd much prefer that, if there are magi worthy of inclusion, they best someone else and leave your reputation unspoiled. Yet if everyone makes their challenge too hard then there are no new archmagi and everyone suffers. I think that there is some social pressure within the group to make challenges where the worthy could succeed with effort. Setting so difficult a challenge that no one can ever beat you could be seen as prideful and selfish.

There is a Tremere Archamga who in her career has focused on magical spirits and creatures. She has written several books regarding such creatures and spirits. Her archmagus challenge is to get a spirit or creature of her choice to serve her for a year. Ranulf has at some point earlier in his life paged through a copy of one of her books while at some other covenant. In doing so he read about Olbrecht's Sky Drake (https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/5th-ed-opinions/108/1) and noted that this creature was a real nightmare for him personally in that it could dispell ignem magic at will, it was completely immune to fire, it was invisible, and it could not be easily located. When this maga set her Archmagus challenge Ranulf remembered the passage and thought it very likely that if he were to challenge the Tremere she would ask him to acquire the sky drake. Ranulf still had friends who believed that they'd like his voice among the archmagi and he's getting up there in years. It wouldn't do to have him earn the distinction and then be lost to twilight a mere two years later. Ranulf quietly started developing a collection of spells and devices to allow him to beat the sky drake, thinking that even if she chose some other target he'd benefit from being able to pursue the quarry with a different set of tools, tools unknown to her.

Considering that I've already done one year and that I have a long list of things to do I'll hold Ranulf to just eight years of study this period. That's 240 xp.

Penetration to 7 for 35
Parma to 8 for 40
Muto to 22 for 43
Auram to 16 for 121
and one final xp in ignem (changed to 2 by his affinity) to make it 32 +11 xp

The auram focus is to facilitate a lot of spells dealing with smoke. It isn't a thing that he has bonuses with but it is adjacent to his fire stuff. It's a big change in terms of arts but it isn't too great of a thematic leap. Also auram is the least used art, It would be good to see some development with it.

Taking in to account that he's already spent four seasons doing fire stuff above, he'll have 24 seasons left for lab work. He'll need two seasons off to work with another magi of a similar age on a longevity ritual so that brings me down to 22 seasons to work with. I didn't check lab totals beforehand, but I'm pretty sure that I can fit in everything that he wants to get done, with a few seasons left for miscellaneous projects.

Artisano also gets xp for this 8 year chunk of time

Magic Theory to 10 for 75 xp
Magic Lore to 6 for 55 xp
Charm to 3 for 25 xp
Brawl to 7 for 35 xp
Organization Lore; Order of Hermes to 2 for 10 xp

First season, with the help of Artisano, he invents this

Can this trap a creature with MR without penetrating? I think so. That brings us to the question of a finesse roll.

If Raanulf has a large cloud and a comparatively small creature within it, say 50 paces from the nearest edge, can we justify not trapping the creature even on a finesse botch?


Yes, though the creature has a tiny bit of wiggle room iirc.

On a Finesse botch, we can justify almost anything! For example, "You intended to manipulate the spell you were casting, but actually targeted a completely different cloud." Oops. Or dispelled the spell you just cast. Or moved the cloud to smash into you. Or something.



So given the situation where a creature is deep within the targeted cloud, you'd have the caster roll an aiming roll (despite the fact that nothing is aimed) and let the creature escape only in the case of a botch? I suppose that we'd say that there is a bonus to the aiming roll at least as large as the ease factor but that amounts to the same thing.

I think that this is the most appropriate way to respect the rule that if a spell isn't resisted it must be aimed. So I'd kind of agree with that decision.

But if I were at the table with my friends respecting that rule isn't my highest priority. I might let the target make an athletics check with a high ease factor if I could see a way for them to possibly reach an edge of the cloud. If it were a non-stress situation I might not even have the magus player make an aiming roll.

There are a few situations where the rule where a spell that isn't resisted needs an aiming roll doesn't provide believable results. I don't like spells that can't realistically fail either, they aren't as likely to lead to fun stories as ones that can fail.


Not raw, but I would prefer MR to apply to this. I agree that an aiming roll seems silly.



Magic Resistance doesn't make sense to me from an in setting perspective. The spell targets smoke that's outside of the parma, how can the parma stop it?

Thoughts: If you have a creature with MR (We'll call him Bob the Dragon) and you want to trap Bob, clearly shackles of ice would be resisted by MR, correct? What about if you just summoned/Muto a wall of ice/stone surrounding him, with Bob in the middle? does the wall just have a Bob-hole in it? Do you need to roll finesse to capture him in a summoned cage?
if you don't need to 'aim' and your changes can't be resisted by MR, what happens? in my game, sometimes I don't bother resistance (yes, the magic squirrel just gets captured in your 90-foot wide close-weave net) but if there's any level of contention, usually I let the 'resisting' creature roll athletics or an appropriate skill to jump out of the way of the pit, run out from under the net, or pull free of the mud-wall before it collapses on top of him. Seems the simplest solution. I admit I'm very curious as to the more experienced peoples' thoughts.


It's not RAW for sure. It's not at all the way MR is described.

But it's targeting smoke in contact with the victim. Or, a slightly different spell, is cleverly only targeting the smoke that's not quite in contact with the victim.

I feel quite comfortable with a version of MR that boils down to animism: When a spell is cast, any angel/spirit/whatevers that would be aware of the spellcasting or of the effect, especially those associated with victims and their MR (because everything has an angel/spirit!) get asked "Hey, do you have a problem with this?" And if there are, then an appropriate amount of MR is applied.

This is how Auras would work too: The bonuses and penalties for an Aura represent the aggregate action of various (usually minor) entities helping and hindering supernatural effects.

Magi who don't see the world in terms of animism can come up with their own explanations. (Magic Resistance partakes of the essence of magic, which is the realm of perfect possible things that fall short of the transcendence of God, so of course it is going to resist effects that its possessor would want to be resisted and not resist effects its possessor would not want to be resisted, because anything less would be less, and just using the same reasoning that Anselm used to prove the existence of God, it is clear that this superior resistance can exist, so therefore it does.)

I'd be changing some of the mechanics too.

The result would be a magic resistance that runs less like a computer program with bugs and loopholes and more like magic.

Things like pink dots and the distinction between aimed vs resisted kind of go away: Just ask the player if he wants MR to apply.




Note that the last post in not RAW! By RAW the victims are trapped, no resistance. A Finesse roll might not just represent precise Aiming, but also not telegraphing what is about to happen to potential victims giving them more time to escape, or not fumbling under stress.

But there's precedence for spells that don't require Finesse rolls to suddenly need them when there are potential victims. Gaping Pit, for example, does not require a Finesse roll....



Second season he'll invent this

and because he has a big laboratory total he'll also do this

In the multiple laboratory activities section of the lab chapter is says "All lab activities must use the same technique and form". These two spells use the same technique and form to determine the lab total, but they do not have the same technique and form as spells. Would you allow it?



But the second spell needs a Mu requisite, and needs +1 magnitude twice: You are changing the fire to generate more smoke, and you are changing the smoke to be especially heavy. At this point, you start controlling the smoke. Base might change too.



Requisite? Muto is the only technique :blush: [size=50](I corrected it, Rego was a typo)

I assume that you're going from the technique typo, if it's a straight Muto spell you'd want a one magnitude bump to include both increased production of smoke and increased density of the smoke produced.

so this:

The spell specifies where the smoke goes, so it also needs Rego.