Yes, by RoP:TD terminology this is true. But by that terminology also not all offspring of angels and men are Nephilim.
And to that state of offspring without Might RoP:TD Nephilim could revert when losing their Might score.
Kind regards,
Berengar
It's taken me a bit of computer jockeying the last few weeks to get things straight, and some time to find this post again.
Question,
Short of any statements made in ROP;TD or ROP:TI which both mention Nephilimn as the children of Angels (be they Divine or Infernal), is ther mention anywhere in any of the books of children of angels who AREN'T Nephilim?
My understanding from both the Game, and Biblical Apocrypha is that the only time Angel and Man interacted in a "Mating" manner it resulted in the non-infernal fall of an entire class of Angels and that, coupled with a few other issues, caused the Great Flood.
Thus, there are no offspirng of the Angels who are NOT Nephilim.
And would all follow the rules in Ars Magica 5th edition as defined in ROP:TD and ROP:TI. Are there Ars Magica rules statments made in the books somwhere that are contrary to this? (Aside from house-rulings?)
Yes, RoP:TD p.34f, description of 'Blood of the Nephilim' has beings which would - by ArM5 definition of 'Nephilim' from p.66 - not be 'Nephilim', but still offspring of angels.
Here you just get confused by the non-standard use RoP:TD makes in its game rules of the word 'Nephilim', which does not conform to the definition you just gave.
Kind regards,
Berengar
"Here you just get confused by the non-standard use RoP:TD makes in its game rules of the word 'Nephilim', which does not conform to the definition you just gave."
In the Torah and several non-canonical Jewish and early Christian writings, nephilim (for those causing others to fall) are a people created by the crossbreeding of the sons of God (b'nei elohim,) and the "daughters of men". The word nephilim is loosely translated as giants or titans in some translations of the Bible, and is left as nephilim in others:
"When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown."
I suspect where you and are are coming to situations of difference here are in the words on the page "Blood of the Nephilim" implies Angelic Heritage via blod relation to a Nephilim. Not being a pure blood Nephilim itself.
To be a Nephilim itself, you have to take the Mythic Companion social class, and all that comes with that.
Thus all Nephilim do have "Strong Angelic Heritage" as it's required of them.
And it is possible for a Nephilim to be less than "80 years old" by defintion, because the game makes allowance for the possibility of such a being/creature being locked in a regio in things like Temporal stasis and what not(or any other magical affect you care to describe). The true definition of the Nephilim and the rules aren't really in disagreement, they just leave it up to us to figure out how to rationalize it.
Not quite. But close.
Precisely, you had stated:
Now, the Nephilim are offspring of angels, OK? And those with "Blood of the Nephilim" are the offspring of Nephilim? So those with "Blood of the Nephilim" are offspring of angels, too, just a little more remote from them. And these are by the ArM5 rules not 'Nephilim' themselves.
Probably all boils down to you writing offspring where meaning children, and me not being able to guess that. No big thing on a list with that many non-native speakers.
There is no need of stuff like temporal stasis here. ArM5 'Nephilim' can well have preserved a "Strong Angelic Heritage" over many generations, even if occasionally interbreeding with humans.
Kind regards,
Berengar
For me, the issue is simple- is "Magic" the only thing holding the creature together? Or is there a physical element that is merely augmented by the magic, but not wholly dependant on it?
That is, if the Magic, the Vim, is gone, is there anything else left of the creature, or at least of their life-force on this plane? For ghosts, for demons, perhaps for elementals, not really. For corporeal undead, for golems, for ephemeral magical creatures like will-o-wisps, perhaps, or perhaps not. For some creatures like dragons, unicorns, the Legendary Black Beast of Aaaaarrrrrrggghhh, probably not- you remove their Vim, and you remove their magic, but the physical critter is still staring you in the face (and is probably pretty pissed off).
As for some of those creatures that fall in between categories (like some varieties of faeries, angels, demons, etc), that's for the SG to interpret, and for magi to research, or take their best guess and trust to luck! (Likewise if those creatures are encountered in their home Regione!)
They are? None exist as a natural state? A person dies, and their ghost never haunts an area unless asked to do so? No demons are sent by Satan to trouble mankind? No elemental creatures exist as a side effect of that element? Well, whatever, if that works for you, but not in any game-world I've ever encountered.
"Destroyed" here is often a matter of interpretation and house-rules. Lesser demons might be destroyed in the literal sense, others might simply be banished to the nether regions for some lengthy period of time, longer than most magi (or, more to the point, most Sagas) concern themselves with.
Likewise, with beings as chaotic as demons, the most powerful variety might not follow standard, predictable rules.