I would be interested in any views (or rule references) on the effects of reducing mystical creatures' Might scores below zero. I had previously assumed that this would destroy the target, but I recall a post in another thread on this board that indicates that this may not be a universal view.
So, is the target destroyed, or is it simply unable to use any powers that require the expenditure of Might? Or something else? Does the nature of the target affect the result, i.e. does it matter whether the target is a demon, a ghost, a griffon, a faerie etc.?
I don't think it can be reduced below zero. To zero yes. I would also assume that the affects are different depending on the creature. The DEO spell only affects demons, but logically other spells can be developed to strip creatures of other types of might.
For creatures with body and natural abilities like dragons, might only fuels magical abilities, as well as providing protection from magic. Running out of it shouldn't mean that they die, but that they are vulnerable and weak. Ghosts and demons are different, as manifestation can be considered to be an a magical effect, either a ghost making himself solid, or a demon being summoned, then running out of might means they cannot manifest any more. After all consider that demons that are DOEed are banished (i think) and can be summoned again once they have recovered.
You should also look at individual exceptions. If you look at the HoH MC, you see that the merinita who have become fae have the option of performing rituals to make their powers operate at less or no might cost. Logically they can continue to use any of those powers no matter how weakened their might becomes. I believe in the same book the true form bjornaers who have final twilighted to become creatures of magical might in animal form can have the same.
So that means there are two types of creatures, both faerie and magic in nature who have the precedent that no matter how much might they lose they can still cast their powers regardless. Both of these types were former magi. But I conjecture that that means that initiated hermetic magi who know the rituals that create these are also capable of inventing rituals that will allow other faeries or magical beasts to operate without there powers costing might.
Imagine a magi who has befriended a dragon allowing that dragon to use his breathe weapon as often as desired, or a merinita serving a faerie lord and boosting that lords ability to use his power.
I'm particularly interested in the issue as it pertains to spirits, as it is relevant to my current saga. If the magical equivalent of DEO (ie StGS) simply strips a spirit of the ability to use powers that require the expenditure of Might, this potentially makes it difficult to banish or otherwise get rid of spirits that have been sent to watch (or, alternatively, simply haunt) a particular area, as this may require no Might. Perhaps they'll have to be "coerced" to leave the area.
I had this come up in my last run - two mages were trying to corral a fire elemental (with a might of 6 - they're young). They sponted an Elemental's Oblivion to drop its might down to 1: pure luck they didn't take it to zero. I'd not thought of it until now but I'm not sure what I'd have done. Perhaps it would have just become Vis of some sort. It was already in a Ring of Elemental Warding so it wasn't going to get away.
I believe non-coporeal beings, are destroyed when their Might Pool (or temporary Might) is reduced to zero. This could very well depend on the type of being you're dealing with:
The "Broken Covenant of Calebais" says a ghost reduced to zero Magic Might (or otherwise killed) returns in a day or so, leaving no vis behind. The tie that binds them to the world must be severed (via a story) to permantly banish them, and this leaves vis behind.
Elemental's spirits are destroyed when their Magic Might is reduced to zero, leaving behind their body and Vis. The same rules (in "Broken Covenant of Calebais") indicate spirits and demons are destoryed, too (but makes no mention of their empty shells).
I think a physical being would be just fine without anything in their Might Pool, unless their specific description says otherwise, or unless it indrectly harms them (e.g. a lizard who is immune to fire for a time after it spends Might, or a creature in flight that required Might points to be expended to stay aloft).
Also note that a creature's Might Score is always the same, only its Might Pool is reduced when it uses powers, however I'm not sure whether things like Demon's Eternal Oblivion do Score or Pool damage. Each has it's own pluses and negatives.
Ghosts or Demons with a Might score reduced to 0 are destroyed - according to the spell descriptions and as far as mortals can tell. The same would make sense for Faeries.
If for certain beings with Might this is not the case, because the SG thinks they have sufficiently mundane bodies and spirits to exist even without Might, then with their Might score also their magic resistance has vanished (see RoP:TI p.33 for the explicit statement), and they are hence easy prey to magi.
Would you leave all flesh and blood running around on earth after it's reduced to zero Might? Demons too?
They could be gathered into instructive zoos (Covenants p.102 Realia) then, with minimal effort of ReAn, ReCo and ReMe!
That's a fine House Rule, but The Infernal says if either a demon's body or spirit is killed/reduced to 0 might it is banished to hell to be tortured forever.
As for Faeries, I'm not familiar with any "in the rules" guidelines for what lack of might does to them. However I would stake Furion's reputation that where ever it is it says after "of course this may just be what the faeries want Hermetic Magi to think!"
My view is that demons, elementals and ghosts should be treated as an exception as they are summoned creatures. They are not fully there, so a destruction of might destroys the body they do have in the mortal world, because they are not fully destroyed as they also have a part of their body in the realm they belong to. You can say any vis left behind was from the vis used in rituals to summon them. Therefore no messy problems with no vis monsters, or no explanation of why there is vis if they don't really die. DOE might reduce their might but it recovers with time, once back in hell. (Urien says that might stays lost in hell, I don't have ROP I but I would not have the loss permanent, all monsters should be able to improve over time just like players)
Not summoned mosters, ie every giant, dragon, werewolf and fae out there, are fully in the world, and their bodies are fully there. So losing all might should just prevent them from using it. Not kill them.
I agree the basic rules of DOE say that when the demon runs out of might it is destroyed, but if you look at the guidelines for perdo vim on the same page, the rules say the basic effect is just reducing might. I argue that demons, not really being there are an exception, they are only destroyed because the might is required to keep them there. They are not fully destroyed being just banished to hell. It would be unfair for mortal creatures from other realms who cannot be banished, because they were not summoned, to be destroyed more permanently than demons.
You don't need RoP:TI to read up what happens to a DEO'd demon. DEO itself describes it well enough.
I don't see any reason for this.
But neither do I see any rule or argument to claim that the bodies and spirits of all magical beings with bodies would remain on earth after their Might was gone.
If besides some Might-related effects the being was basically mundane (say a goose laying golden eggs), leaving a mundane animal in its stead might be appropriate.
But if the body or spirit of the being itself is already unusual enough for the game setting, then they might not be able to exist without Might, just like all the demons' bodies and spirits.
(This spares the SG the trouble with magi riding mightless, but otherwise complete flying dragons into battle. But since e. g. griffins regularly appear in the medieval bestiaries, players can then still try to get these as mounts.)
Angels can be destroyed by Hermetic PeVi magic, just like demons. See RoP:TD p.21.
Nephilim are offspring of both angels and humans, and such offspring, having the Virtue 'Blood of the Nephilim', need not even have Divine Might. Full Nephilim get it only with the Virtue 'Strong Angelic Heritage'. So here it makes sense to only take that Virtue away when the Might is gone.
Back to the Faeries: most appear to me as foreign to the mundane world as demons or angels - so would also not survive the loss of their Might score. But there could be some faerie animals or plants which might instead revert to some mundane state.
ALL Nephilim have Strong Angelic Heritage...
Nephilin made as characters are Mythic Companions. I would assume what goes for PC's, most definately goes for NPC's
[ ROP:Divine Pg. 66 Third Column ]
Blood of the Nephilim
Greater Immunity, Diease
Sense Hoiness and Unholiness
Strong Angelic Heritage
As for the topic of what happens to something that reaches zero [realm] power pool. I assume if it relies on [realm] power to keep itself together, that when the magic is gone, so is the being in question. By whatever means.
Ghosts require [realm] power to exist, removing that power removes them[unbless they have another condition that keeps them on Earth, at which point removing their [realm] power only temporarily undoes them]. Same with Demons and Elementals. Living Beings assocaited with any of the realms, and I mean reals ones, not ones who use their associated [realm] power to create the living shell they are in, still exist after they lose all thier [realm] power pool.
Where a demon is dispelled from his shell and sent back to where ever it came from(or destroyed, functionally they are pretty much the same thing), a Dragon will not be banished or destoyed, as a matter of fact, it might well still eat you.
This is why a lot of the time I would say True Faeries disappear if they lose all thier might. They might be "real" in Arcadia, but they are using thier might and power to force themselves and thier magical existence on the real world. Thus when the magic making up thier physical existence goes, so do they. [This statement will hold for me until I see the ROP:Arcadia book]
Honeslty would you expect a Infernally corrupted person who has natural Infernal Powers to vanish just because you took his pool away? Nope, he'll still be there, probably po'd, but pretty ineffectual at the moment.
I did not know that I had a such, but since you put at stake I guess I'd rather toss my 2 cents in. -
I cannot recall or find any universal RAW on this. DEO suggest one thing, the PeVi does not elaborate on it and Calebais has some pointers on it aswell. In spite of no universalilty I do not see this as being broken, and as such I see no reason for fixing it.
I think that it is great that this is mostly left to discretion of the individual troupes and SGs. Moreso it leaves room for a case by case decision. Deciding what happens to each kind of creature as they reach zero Might Score. Thus it can be suited to make ones stories the best they can be. Sometimes the faerie who is left without it's Might might lead to interesting scenes. Is his future role in the saga best suited as the stuborn curmudgeon who in a harmless but constant fashion drones on about his losses? Or is he the subdued slave plotting his revenge? Or did he become the Faerie Queen of the Summer Court's psycophant to poison the local faeries against the magi? Same goes for the other way, do you wish "toothless", Might-reduced dragons forced to act as a magus' steed? Or would you rather not? Or maybe just leave the constant grinding of nagging fear that its Might for some reason at some time bounce back and paid its due on the magi? And Demon's... if not dead, for how long will they stay banished or confined to hell? As they magi increase their power and influence how does this demon from their past fare? Is he a menial low ranking slave that might reappear as a simple infernal messenger for a Prince of hell? Does he become an informant on a Prince moving against the magi? Or does he determined resurge into power to became a personal enemy or wreak havoc on the magi in the future?
The possiblities, and thus the stories, are endless. I do think it is important that the SG as he creates or introduces creatures of Might, that he decides from the outset how they will react if reduced to zero. I do no think that he neccesarily needs to make this public to the players, although he might hint at it in handouts or in responses to relevant knowledges or rolls made by the characters/players.
So Ruaridh I would suggest that you, if you are the SG to mull over what you think would create the most interesting scenes or session. Would it be most interesting to "kill" the spirits off by banishing them with PeVi? Would it be most interesting to let them have an agenda of their own (the ghosts in Calebais for instance, needed to have their fetters or ties to the world of the living resolved before passing on foor good)? If "coercing" them to leave could they then be turned against the one who sent them in the first place? And so on.
Without going to my ROP:Infernal, I do miss the 3rd ed ability for demons to project multiple spirits into the world based on level of infernal power.
It prevents some players(I'm guilty of doing this myself as a player) of having a really nice Vim score, and Magic Theory, and just taking my chance and bbklowing a MASSIVE wad of im in a sponteaneous DEO, and sending the dmeon away forever.
Doing that in the 3rd Ed, was a good way to make one ... pardon the pun... hell, of an enemy. Since all I did was send ONE of his emenations back to Hell, and pissed him off something fierce.