Rego Craft which magic family would be the best ?

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

For a new saga , i have been building a young apprentice, in thebian tribunal
I planned to play him as a Rego Crafter

But i'm notre sur which family i should choose:

Jerbiton for Free expression virtue
Flambeau for the school of Villano
Tremere for the massive support of the family
Verditius for the concept of Crafting
Mercere for the Mercantile connection ?

To give a bit of the idea this the construction of the apprentice

Name Dezsidérius
Born in Bulgaria from Merchant, got stuck in Constantinople during the sack by the crusade
Age 12

Stat (are kinda nuts since my SG told me to run 1d10-1d10 to determine them)
Stat : Int+2 Per+3 Str -2 Sta +3 Pre+1 Com +2 Quick +2 Dex +2
Personality : Ordered +3 Groomed +2 Meticulous +1
Virtue :
Elemental Magic : Major Hermetic +3 Some people told me wasnt the best for my objective why not ?
Affinity Rego : Minor Hermetic+1
Affinity Terram : Minor Hermetic +1
Affinity Finesse : General Minor +1
Puissant Finesse : General Minor +1
Puissant Parma : General Minor +1
Keen Vision : General Minor +1
Independant Studies : General Minor +1

Flaw :
Deficient Perdo : Major Hermétic -3
Ambition : Major Personalité -3 (Create the most Magnificient Covenant in the Tribunal)
Foreign Upbringing : Minor Personality -1 (Grog p80)
True Love : Minor Story -1
Vision : Minor Supernatural -1
Weird Magique : Minor Hermétic -1

Ability
Lang : Hungarian (Bulgarian) 5(75)
Lang: Greek (Business Term) 3 (30)
Al Transylvanie (Geography) 1(5)
Al Thèbes (Geography) 1(5)
Awareness : (Searching) 2(15)
Athletism : (Running) 1(5)
Brawl (Dodge) 2(15)
Bargain (Selling) 1(5)
Carouse (Sexuality) 1(5)
Charm ( Seduction) 2(15)
Guile (Mondain) 1 (5)
Folk ken (Woman) 1(5)
Etiquette (Noblesse) 1(5)
Prof Architecte (monuments antiques) 2(15)
Survival (Mountain) 1(5)

2

The first three, for me, connect better with how I read the character traits than Verditius. "I want to create the Most Magnificent Covenant...," sounds very Tremere or Jerbiton. I can certainly see Flambeau but I'm not sure it would give you the mercantile connections you'll need to play up the character in a Saga.

3

Just to make your problem even more complicated, the Rusticani tradition of Ex Miscellanea is far superior to everyone else when it comes to making charged items. They can do it without using a seasonal activity. You probably are wanting to make greater enchanted items, but take a look at the Rusticani before you rule them out.

They're in Houses of Hermes: Societates.

4

Hi,

Any House will do from an rp perspective, including Ex Misc. Bjornaer with a Heartbeast associated with building, such as a bird that builds a nest, beaver (yeah yeah) that builds a dam, etc. Criamon because good craftsmanship exemplifies increased harmony. Even Flambeau, for building weapons and war machines. And so on. Or just create your own Ex Misc tradition.

As for optimization...

Elemental Magic totally sucks, so of course it sucks for you too, but even worse since you are not likely to craft flames and wind very often. I and others have posted about this lackluster virtue before.

The most important virtue for a crafter is probably Cautious with Finesse, because all those stress rolls will otherwise catch up with you. You don't have it.

Also, be aware that RAW, crafting magic has a very hard time creating things that are beautiful. An extreme Finesse score is needed even to pull off barely competent art. So 3 vps go to Affinity+Cautious+Puissant Finesse. And then a lot of initial xp in Finesse. Beauty will still be hard to come by, but utility will be fine.

I might note that Terram is far from the only Form needed to be a generally good crafter: Herbam for wood and linen, Animal for bone and wool... Alchemy also falls under craft magic, but your magus might not care. Still, your magus might want to do something useful when not building a covenant worthy of Mordor.

Nothing wrong with concentrating on ReTe though. Regardless, we might want Puissant+Affinity with Rego, for 2 more vp.

So now we consider House, from the perpective of optimization. If your GM allows you to start with Mystery Virtues, I suggest House Merinita and Charm Magic ftw. A magus who crafts many different things might need to cast many different spells. Having these as Formulaic is a big waste if you only plan to cast them once or twice. Spontaneous Magic is better, if you can accumulate the Casting Total and if you can deal with the botch dice. Charms add directly to the Casting Total, so your magus can create a few up to his Faerie Magic score and then cast fatiguelessly. No chance of botch, though spell level is a bit limited. Decent scores in Phil+AL make ceremonial casting worthwhile. If you can take the Magical Foci minor virtue, that's another source that directly adds to casting total. Depending on GM ruling (I allow it but others don't), Cautious with AL applies to ceremonial magic, which lets you cast ritual fatiguing sponts for crafting; at that point, having extra initial xp to dump into Phil+AL is extremely worthwhile, which makes Good Parens, Baccalaureate, Gild Trained, etc worth attention. LLSM also deserves a look: Dangerous when used on the fly but not ceremonially, for you. (I've wanted to play a character that leverages all this...)

BTW, the right Faerie Correspondence can also make your day. I think the rules for FC need clarification and are ill- or insufficiently considered, but not quite broken. I love everything Faerie in AM, a preference that goes back decades (I'm gonna die...) because it connects the fake mythology of OoH with the real mythology and folklore of Europe. I also love optimized characters. So I also like FCs despite some issues.

My 'generic' optimization advice (Pu+Af in Te+Fo plus Focus as a base) does not apply here.

generic version
vp virtues
03 pu+af+cautious Finesse
02 pu+af Rego
etc

ritual spont version
vp virtues
03 pu+af+cautious Finesse
01 cautious with AL
03 LLSM
01 Charms
01 Magical Foci
01 Faerie Magic (house virtue)
01 Good Parens or Baccalaureate or Faerie Blood

If you can create an Ex Misc version of the Merinita, Strong Faerie Blood is a very very favorite of mine, which FC makes even better.

Anyway,

Ken

5

Hi,

I'd like the Rusticani if: a) they were given a different Major Hermetic Flaw; the one they get is utterly crippling for them. b) they could do their schtick with any craft they knew, rather than just one (the rules are not clear about this.)

Anyway,

Ken

6

If you're making that many Finesse rolls, this might be a rare instance when Learns from Mistakes might be a good choice.

There is an alternative version of Elemental Magic that's been discussed here on the forums, and which I use in my games. But it's not a particularly good choice for a crafter because you'll be using Herbam and Animal far more than you'll be using Auram and Ignem.

7

Hi,

That might be one of my versions posted here. :slight_smile:

(Better Cautious with Finesse and not botch than Learn from Mistakes. "Ok, my work on the archway collapsed the entire tower, and I'm really sorry about your family, but on the positive side, I sure learned a lot about structural integrity." Of course, optimization isn't everything, and this might be exactly the saga you want.)

Anyway,

Ken

8

Just to understand well

you dont think Keen vision +3 sight roll ( even finesse) + per 3 + finesse itself lets say at beginning would be 1 + Puissant 2 = Dice +9 at level 1 of finesse,
if i go to jerbiton i could get a free expression which bring to dice +12 or this famousely Cautious with finesse
For the finess
It seem that i can easily reach 15 to 18 with a finesse of 3/4 and even better if i raise in it no ?

I understand elementalism seem not so great, but i have a gamemate who do have an elementalist and do amazing things with it.

I was wondering that manipulate , terram ( stone or metal) mix with any of the other element would work well for a builder
Exemple a house which warm it self or is ward against cold, i just need to add the Ignem requisite, even more the Aquam requisite if i want to protect it from water

Am i wrong in my thinking ?

I mean rego craft is one objective but i tend to not overspecialised and be versatile thats why i thought elemental was interesting, i did hesitate with second insight at first.
Now from what you says i think even Diedne Magic would be amazing ...
My Sg forbit Magical Foci so i didnt use it
As for Cautious with finesse i have to admit it seem very interesting, maybe i should loose Puissant Parma even though i realize that being very useful since there is no book of parma and after level 5 it is lots and lot of Practice to raise that one which seem to be a waste of time.

About Rustic i have to admit that i agree with Ovarwa the Weak spontanous Magic is a flaw i cant stand with. Because it meen that you have to have a magus which spend lot of time in his lab to develop formulic and never go out or focus really on his craft.

As for Merenita well we begin when we are not even discovered , so no mystery cult , but i have to admit i didnt knew about the charm, i will look into it

9

Hi,

I am having a hard time understanding what you write, for which I apologize. But if I understand you correctly, you believe that Keen Vision ought to apply to your Finesse rolls. I do not think that is usually true canonically, and in the absence of an explicit game rule, I would certainly not allow your interpretation, because manipulating magic is about a lot more than vision, and many Finesse rolls are not even based on Perception. But if I am wrong, or if you are allowed to do this in your saga, then Keen Vision for the win!

Free Expression would only apply to Finesse rolls for making art. Any other use of Finesse, including those that seem to be mostly about "can I make something that works" is not included. GM call.

But again, if you know that in your saga, any crafting can be considered close enough to art, congrats!

Regardless, more Finesse is better, especially as your projects become more ambitious. And Cautious with Finesse is key.

As an aside, Learned Magicians can utterly rule this space. Fortunam charms to grant themselves big bonuses to Perception or Intelligence, to Finesse, and grab a few useful virtues for a while, and make botches impossible. Magicam to temporarily grant oneself a Greater Power to perform the necessary Rego magic.

More is better, especially as your projects get bigger.

That's not about the virtue.

lol Maybe we're just not talking about the same thing? Canonically, craft magic tends to refer to Rego magics that do normal things but via magic. In the core rules, such magics can get around mundane processes but absolutely must achieve results that in theory could have been achieved through mundane, non-magical means, though perhaps only by an extremely competent craftsman, or large group of craftsmen, or very large craftsman, etc. So this kind of magic cannot make a house that warms itself or wards against cold (which is itself an iffy proposition, since cold isn't a thing in Hermetic magic, but that's a tangent, and a search of these forums might turn up old conversations about it.)

Of course, your game might have different rules! (Which would also explain why Elementalist is a good virtue in your game. And there's nothing at all wrong with playing differently. Whatever is fun. It's just that to the extent that your group has changed the rules, anything said here is not relevant.)

Not really. DM doesn't help you get big totals across multiple Forms. It doesn't help you reduce botches. It is good for casting without Fatigue, and that doesn't matter here.

Anyway,

Ken

10

Jerbiton is clearly the traditional choice, and has some obvious optimization possibilities. Merinita based faerie magic also clearly has benefits, especially with faeries having the intriguing relationship they do with artists...
Flambeaux doesn't fit to me stylistically unless you are wanting to be a combat engineer. Tremere would certainly have ways to make use of such a character, but I don't see that leading to a lot of stories as you would probably be a support character in the Tremere military structure.
Tytalus could be interesting- not necessarily advantageous but it definitely gives you a point of interaction with mundanes for building webs of intrigue...
Bjorner would be a fairly neutral choice with a bird or beaver for a heart beast
Bonisagus just doesn't seem to fit really...
Criamon might have a path that fits, but doesn't otherwise seem to type.
Mercere I would advise against- there are generally too many players with mercer mages and canonically too few Mercere mages in existence (I was in one game where apparently 1/4 of the Mercere ages in the world were located in our covenant)
Ex Miscelanea has some excellent opportunities- especially if the storyguide is willing to allow you to craft your own tradition within it.
Guernicus could fit from a historical perspective (the founder was a master of terram) but otherwise doesn't add much benefit
Verdituous is a poor choice as you will be using finesse to replace craft abilities, while Verditious use craft abilities to enhance enchanting- literally opposite ends of the construction spectrum.

11

i don't believe that Keen Vision should apply to Per+Finesse rolls. The spells are momentary in duration, hard to see and react quickly to magic within that time. Rather, The use of perception with Finesse is the ability of the magus to control and shape his magic to do something nearly instantaneously. If eyesight were used, the mistakes would have happened, already. If you want to improve the total, use Precise Casting spell mastery ability, from HoH:S.

Cautious with Ability doesn't remove the chance of a botch, you still have a single botch die.

Agree with Ovarwa on the Free Expression (and Muse, by extension) virtues.

12

Hi,

Nope! It differs from Cautious Spellcaster. CwA only removes 2 dice, but does not include the usual 'roll at least one die.'

Edit: Unless there is some errata I don't know about.

Anyway,

Ken

13

I forgot to declare serf's Parma!

14

:slight_smile:

Cautious with Ability is fantastic for characters who use the same Ability over and over.

Hedge Wizards of various stripes should note that it works just fine with Accelerated Abilities too. (IIRC, Solomonic Arts are really AAs....)

Anyway,

Ken

15

Since I have a keen interest in Crafting magic, I will point you tothis discussion (shameless self-promotion), where I presented three crafting magi. There is some flaws that I did not fixed in the thread but that can easily be fixed.

Some of the learning points I gather from this previous discussion:

  • Check with your troop if Finesse rolls are made with Int or Per and bump this characteristic to +3 (if you have spare virtue, you can try to go to +5, but it is unlikely to happen)
  • Although not explicitly spell in the rules, Keen vision does not apply to Finesse rolls. First, it make it more powerful than Puissant (Finesse) since it is a +3 instead of a +2, and second it would have a much broader application (since it will apply not only to Finesse roll but any Awareness and other sight-based non-combat skills
  • Magical focus or other virtue allowing to invent or cast high level spells are not really needed: you won't have to Penetrate when you build a house, thus as long as you can cast the spell, you won't have any use for the excess casting total. It might take you one or two more seasons to invent your spells, but you don't need that many and you might trade your service for spells;
  • If you want to build really large building, you will have to find a way to build it in several pieces, because the Finesse difficulty is directly linked to the time it would take to build by mundane means the objet/building you are crafting. A castle would take decades to build thus the Finesse roll would be in the 40+ to have it made by a single spell (p93, Hermetic Projects, building a grain barge with a single ReHe(Te) spell has a Finesse difficulty of 30). In the same topic I linked, I made a proposal to have Rego craft spell with a duration of Concentration to have a finer control, thus a lower Finesse roll. It is in the area of agreement by the troop, so discuss that ahead of time to avoid being disappointed.

It is very likely that your mage will have to develop a few mundane skills (like Profession: Architect, or Craft: Mason), so Adept Student might not be a waste of Virtue. In HoH: Societas p60-64, there is a few rules on how to make Masterpieces with Rego magic. For example, having a deep familiarity (appropriate skill of 5) grants a +3 bonus on Finesse roll.
Also, having this kind of mundane expertise could justify how you can use several Rego spell to build step by step a building, with an lower Finesse score instead of a single spell with very high difficulty: your mundane expertise allows you to deconstruct your building project in several small ones, of lower difficulty, thus with a higher chance to product a masterwork. Something that a magus with knowledge of how to build a house would have no idea how to manage.

Just for the sake of example:
Per: +3
Finesse: 7+2 (Puissant) - possible to achieve out of apprenticeship without being completely crippled in other skills
Bonus for familiarity: +3 (Prof: Architect: +5)
Total: +15
If you are willing to spend a season planning your construction, your ST might likely give you an extra +3, for a final +18. P61 of HoH: Societas, ease factor of 18 qualify as daily work of exceptionally skilled artists. If you can fragment your casting so each of them complete the equivalent of a month of work by one man, you will have the construction achieved by an exceptionally skilled artists.
For a magus fresh out of gauntlet, that's quite optimised.
After several years, once Finesse is at 10, you can bypass the season of preparation to achieve the same result. You should have quite some reputation by that time.
You will notice that this package of virtues is relatively light: Affinity + Puissant (Finesse), Puissant (Prof: Architect), Skilled Parens because you will need the extra XP, Free expression because it will help with artistic creation, that is 4 minor virtues, leaving you room to boost a bit your Arts (Terram/Herbam/Rego most likely).
If you are allowed to use slow construction spells requiring Concentration, then obviously Puissant Concentration is highly recommended. Cautious with Finesse as well since you will be rolling a lot of these dices.

You can get idea for your construction spells in Hermetic Projects - The Hermetic Shipyard and in Covenants in the section Magical Alternatives to Covenfolk. Basically, your typical construction spell would be around levels 20 to 30. Not elementary, but they don't require magical focus to be achievable.

16

Serf's Parma, but I believe that Societates makes clear that Creo crafting spells use Int for their Finesse rolls and Rego uses Perception.

17

Thank you Ezzchiel
i did read your post, which was very interesting and full of information.
As for all of you, you did open my mind and made able to ask correct question.

So what i did was

  1. to ask to my Sg if keen Eyes bonus was applied for finesse roll in Rego Craft
  2. As well ask if my Sg was taking Int or Per for Finesse roll, so far i had a partial anwswear which was i could need to use Dex as well.
  3. I will still try Elementalism for Major Hermetic, to see what could i do or not with it !
  4. If i end up with Jerbiton i will take Cautious with Finesse
  5. I agree that Merenita ( for the charm mysteries) and the artistic stories it could bring out or Ex miscellanea are quite interesting
  6. I never tried Tytalus and to be honest i dunno if my rp personnality would fit
  7. Even if i dont like Tremere in an other saga i could open my mind to go in such ordered family.
    8 ) From your information i plan to raise Prof Architect up to 5 but as well raise my prof Sculpture who knows if i need money to some point.
  8. Never try to pull up an entire building from one spell but i must do it part by part .

Now from this i have a question which spell you think it would be to go for ? as quickly as i can ?

Finally Elezechiel brougt to the light an interesting question in my mind :

First of all where did you found the Faerie God Blood -Fafner ? I have been looking around for a list of those god blood and never found one
Sympathy is a +4 bonus in appropriate god blood craft or ability ?

18

Just because your House has a mission doesn't mean your magus needs to be interested in that mission, though I agree that Bonisagus doesn't give much benefit to this character type. Guernicus, on the other hand, fits well if you have some ability to either fight or investigate when called on to do so - there's still a fairly strong Terram tradition in the House.

Rego Crafters generally don't focus on specific spells - they want Arts for Spontaneous Magic, because Rego Craft spells are almost always very low level.

19

Hi,

Adding to that, craft magi have high Rego scores and often craft using spontaneous magic (Cautious with AL, etc), so the formulaic spells they take should leverage their strength in Rego and Finesse. School of Vilano combat (ReTe to fling things and bypass MR), teleportation (ReCo), aura of rightful authority (ReMe), etc.

Anyway,

Ken

20

A Vilano-trained Flambeau who just wants to make stuff, rather than specialize in combat like his parens wants?