ReMe protections

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

One of my players asked whether a character without MR could have a mind-shield based on the ReHe and/or ReIg wards - the game is getting demonic and he is tired of all the pesky demonic powers. We basically said no to any blank Mentum protections, but it made me think over how could one protected non-magi characters apart from extending a parama

To aid non-magi character from the unfortunate personality trait rolls in infernal auras what about protective spells based on ReMe10
'Control an unnatural emtion' to give the target a bonus if the bestowed trait is in opposition to the pesonality trait (i.e honesty instead of deciet)

Then to aid characters from effects like Call to Slumber or other Me effects effect specific wards like 'Ward Against Sleep' ReMe25 T/S/I prevents the target from falling asleep.

How should one sg when there are mulitple conflicting effects on a character - for example a ward against sleep and a sun duration call to slumber? You could have the spells resist each other, you could say the first on wins, or you could say they neutralize each other when the other fails the remaining effect applies. I personally like the last option they neutralize each other till one fails. What would you do?

2

<Heavy serf's parma - not at my usual comp, so I haven't even got access to metacreator >

There are several Me effects that would protect a mundane from other Me effects. There is an effect that removes any strong emotions (could probably be modified to remove any emotion, or any emotion exept what you specify).
Snap of awakening is useful to prevent people falling asleep... If spellcasters using sleep magics is a problem, use an item that detects the awakened status of the wearer, and casts snap of awakening on them. This is also useful for late night guards.

This pretty much depends on how you define your ward.
If an effect makes you imune to something, then you are imune.
So if you have a Ward against Sleep, and someone tries to make you go to sleep, you stay awake.
However, remember that such an effect would prevent you from resting as well, by keeping you wide awake at all times. And that might not be a good idea for an effect meant to last more than a very short while...

3

I'd run it similar to how wards vs creatures are. there is no reason a more poweful spell can't shatter your minor ward. So the ward would have to be equal level of the spell/effect it's trying to block and then it needs extra levels to counter the incomming spells penetration.

We've had 2 different players attempt a ward vs lightning as protection form incantation of lightning, it was ruled both times by different story guides that the ward needed to have more/equal power than the incomming spell. The result, at least for 1 player, was to design the ward similar to ward vs heat and flames to just give a soak bonus. There have also been a few magi brought down by a sleep spell and then a sword thrust, I know one player has a ward to maintain a concious state...we'll see what happens based on spell levels/penetration when it actually gets tested, another has instilled snap of awakening into a familiar who can monitor his magus.

4

Several intresting effects there Agnar.

A ward to maintain a concious state; what happens if you run out of fatigue levels? Does he start losing body levels next? Or is the spell powerful enough to give warping points at this point?

Note that in canon the guidelines for Auram spells, a severe weather phenomenon(sp) like lightning, has a spesific lvl both to create and to ward against.

Also, why are you mixing penetration into wards? Usually, wards have to penetrate to affect people, the other way around...

Btw - do you apply this rule against the other standard wards? Like ward agains wood? So that if someone lifts a big tree and drops on you, you need a very powerful ward to survive?

5

Hum... Most wards seem to protect absolutely, like a Greater Immunity. No dice roll, nothing.
But then, there are spells like the ward against heat and flames, which seems weaker than those "absolute wards".
Moreso, absolute wards may completely cripple a magus or creature.

A solution might be this:

  1. Absolute Wards: A spell might have to beat the ward's penetration with its own to work. If it does, it works unimpended. If it doesn't, it is stopped cold. In this way, wards work a lot like MR.
  2. Relative Wards: like the ward against heat and flames (+1 mag for +5 soak). For attribute rolls and such, they give a bonus like soak/5. they might not protect you completely, but they work everytime.
6

I think what he is saying is that you are going to need Penetration to 'touch' the Magus in question...and the spell would have to be higher level than the defensive spell...tough to do both.

7

We have the spell penetration (or the creature's might + single die) have to beat the ward LEVEL.

A lot less need to keep scores of casting totals written down.

Best,

Xavi

8

good question. I've only considered it as awake/asleep ect... I suppose when/if it comes up I'd rule that it wouldn't work for fatigue since that would be pushing/breaking the limits

Yup. but I figure that a created lightning bolt is unnatural, so you need to pit spell powers against each other.

consider the following...you have a ward vs generic spell effect. if the ward always counters the effect it doesn't matter how much power the caster puts into it (extra penetration). It makes more sense that a ward can be over powered and if you want to have total protection you have to up the level of the ward to acount for the extra force that the spell is comming at you with.

only if the tree was magical. :unamused:

9

The easy solution would be simply to have the spell fail when fatigue ran out offcourse...

Yes, and no.

Consider a simple ward against getting wet ("Cloak of Duck's Feathers"?), this will protect against water until you are submerged... In other words - until a LOT of water hits... This effect doesn't care about levels, but rather about actual amount. Natural/unnatural doesn't really matter...

Penetration beats magic resistance, but no matter your penetration, it doesn't affect (or beat) soak - the actual effect you generate needs to do that... And so I feel it should work against wards.
If you need to break a ward, use PeVi effects... Or be smart, and alter your angle of attack...

Btw - there are wards designed with holes - ie. the standard versjon of Ward against wood, which is designed to let magical wood through - most likely to allow the magus in question to hold onto his staff... Similarily a ward against sleep might be designed to allow sleep once one is heaviliy fatigued.

10

Interesting.

A simple ward against wood would protect against natural wood, but could be penetrated by magical wood?

Funny one, and actually a case when enchanted weapons might be more useful than mundane ones.

11

ward against heat and flame isn't a yes/no type effect so there is no reason to mess with it...It's mainly that if you want absolute protection you need to pay for it if there will be any chance of preserving game balance.

I disagree with that last part, soley on the basis of preserving balance, it will work fine for rain, posibly even someone throwing a bucket of water on you(but doubtful), if you want to have it protect you from a "pillum of water" then you have to design it to deal with the extra power of the spell (penetration) or have it just give a bonus to soak.

You still need to get through parma or magic resistance if attacking. but it would allow you to actually hold onto your magical staff rather than have it go flying from your hand as you put the ward up.

12

Seems we're going to agree to disagree on this one. As I see no game balance reasons to make any kind of ward vulnerable to penetration - I actually see balance reasons not to... After all, one allready needs a high penetration to get by MR - if that same penetration will also allow one to bypass wards, this leads to very boring magical duels; instead of having mages trying all kinds of tricks to get at each other, they will simply sling their best spell until the duel is over...

13

I easily can imagine a ReMe ward which gives +x bonuses to personality rolls and allows it even when the spell don't let the personality rolls. E.g.: fear spells or even against sleeping.

14

I look at it more like, by not doing this, any Magi can, regardless of their actual skill, get immunities and parma is useless. How long before some one decides "maybe I can make a ward/effect vs PeVe spells". The idea that you can use unraveling the form spells as a type of ward as mentioned in another thread (which seemed to get alot of support) combined with absolute protections is a small step to take.

In your example the magi just needs to start with a spell to unravel the ward and then go with their best spells, and because the ward is designed as such a low level it will be easy to dispell.

15

Pro-active "wards" vs Re-active wards; The unravelling type defense (for those sagas that allow them), are pro-active, and needs to overcome the incomming spells. Re-active defences (wards), must on the other hand be overcome by the incomming spells. Two different ballgames...

This allows the defender several more chances of defending himself... Not to mention the posibility of using wards as fast-cast spontanious defenses (like mentioned in the core book)... Your way means that such defenses are pointless, as they (barring special virtues) will not have anywere near enough power to make a decent defence.

16

Hello all :slight_smile:
I'm new to this one forum, and I play Ars Magica for some years now.

This topic is of interest to me because my mage is a ward specialist and I would like to expend my spell list to other spells than the usual "Ward against creature type XYZ".

I would like to protect our grogs against Mentem magic, using a formulaic spell.

I noticed there seems to many ways to handle the wards:

Ablasive (ex.: Ward against heat and flame) VS "all-or-nothing" (ex. Wards against demon, or Ward against wood)

Another factor:
Gradual (ex.: Wards against demons) VS "always-have-an-effect" (ex.: ward against heat and flame, or Break the oncoming wave)

I noticed wards usually have an extra magnitude. (ex.: see ReAu guideline
A ward to protect against metal is 2 magnitude higher than to unnaturally control it. Etc)

@fkhan: I would propose a " Ward against Magical Tempering of Mental State" to have a BASE level of 5 (one mag. higher than to "control mental state".)

My question: what would be the best way to handle a Ward that protect against mental control ?

Could it be ablasive : Base 15 lowering the base power of a mentem effect by one magnetude. +1 mag. = lower the power of effect by another magnetude.
So that Enslave the Mortal Mind (base level 25) would not control the emotion.
The same ward but with a base level 20 against the same spell would allow control as long as you can see it.Etc.
OR:
Give a roll against mental control of SD+ Bonus against a ease factor of 6+ mag. of incoming spell.
Base 15 would give a bonus of +3, +1 mag. for a +3 bonus.
So a ward with a base level of 20 against Enslave the mortal mind would give a roll of Die + 6 vs ease factor of 13.

Both ideas makes you resistant to mental control.

I like Ward against heat and flame because it is ALWAYS usefull to have: it always reduce damage by 15 points. So a CrIg that do +20 damage will most likely only do a light wound.
It makes you resistant to fire.

Another way would be to make such a general guideline for ReMe:

Gen: Ward against a particular magical effect (memory, emotion, mental state, control of mind) of level equal of less than the (level + 2 mag.)of this spell.

It makes you immune to some mystical effect of a certain maximum level of power.

This last idea is simpler but less to my personnal liking. Is there any rules/ideas about all that somewhere ? what do you think ? =)

17

Get a familiar and put all your bond strength into the cord to help resist mental control.

18

Thanks for your answer. Do you think it would be possible make a link between a mundane and a familiar ?

My goal is more to get ideas about what spells would be possible with the ward focus and how they could be made.
It would be of interest if I could get our grogs some sort of protection, the same way I can protect them against wind, fire or metal.