Research for a new spell duration

I am playing a rather martial characater in a campaign I am in. She is a Tremere Swordmaster and for some reason, - I do not remember why, I choose puissant Magic Theory (Obviously I had a great idea for it when I made her, but as this character was made 7 months ago and the campaign had its first session today - i forgot it). So now I am trying to reinvent a good reason for her to have that virtue.

I have an idea, that she as a fighter wants to do original research to help the combat magi of the Order by inventing a new duration called Battle. It means that the spells will end once the battle is over . I know that thiis duration is quite fluid, as certain combat sequences can be quite long. Though worth to be said, with Battle I mean only the physical battle for a single soldier. Say I was to storm a castle and cast a battle duration spell. This spell would end once we flee for the current try or if we capture the castle. If we flee and retry to take said castle, I have to recast the spell.

Is this a duration you thin is viable to put into play and would you allow it?
If so, how high on the scale would you place it. I am thinking of an equal to sun duration, is this to little or much?

Very few battles last beyond sunset, so yes, I'd say duration sun is it's equivalent.

Sun duration works.
I was going to suggest Performance Magic (Martial Ability), but that has too many restrictions compared to what you want.

I think that D:Sun is a bit on the expensive side. Very few battles last this long; and it's of very limited scope.
So I'd say that, if you design a spell without any breakthrough, you can give it a "battle" duration by paying +2 magnitudes. With a minor breakthrough, I'd allow the following two durations:

D: Battle (equivalent to D: Conc)
The spell lasts as long as its target is engaged in combat, and must have an effect related to said combat (giving strength or protection, allowing flight etc.). If cast with a Target affecting multiple individuals, the spell lasts as long as at least one of them remains in combat.

D:War (equivalent to D: Moon, but must be a Ritual)
The spell lasts as long as its target remains engaged in a War. What exactly constitutes a War is up to the troupe, but any peace, truce or treaty ends the spell.

That was my initial thought as well, but D: Conc is the same level as D: Diameter and more relevantly D: Performance.

D: Battle would then be a superior version of D: Performance (Martial Ability), which requires a virtue, and is not only more limited in use on the battlefield, but also requires a (characteristic+ability) roll to even cast them, meaning an extra chance to botch.

Ofcourse, you could just use D: Diameter, as very few fights last more than 20 rounds anyway, but the above D: Battle, I cannot support.

We're (almost) in the time of the Hundred Years' War (1337-1453), and you want this to be the equivalent of Moon?! :open_mouth:

Wait wait!

First of all, as I was saying, without a Virtue or breakthrough, I'd allow a formulaic spell to have D: Battle by paying +2 magnitudes, i.e. the equivalent of Sun (while it's slightly worse than Sun, since most battles last definitely less than Sun). But with a breakthrough, I'd look at Performance Magic, Faerie Magic, Atlantean Magic and all the Minor Virtues that give you access to a few new Durations (and Ranges and Targets) that are slightly more effective, particularly in specialized contexts, then equivalent Hermetic Durations.. So, I don't think it's fair to say that Performance Magic would require a Virtue, and D: Battle would not, because effectively a Breakthrough on the latter would give you a Minor Virtue.

Second, Performance magic gives you two advantages. The new Duration is only one of the two. The other, which is probably worth at least "half" of the Virtue, is that it makes your spells unobstrusive. It's not as good as having Subtle Magic and/or Quiet Magic X2, but it's a good step in that direction.

Finally, while it's true that Performance magic requires "keeping up the performance" and one extra (really easy, 3+) ability roll, it's also true that the situations in which you may apply Performance Magic are far, far more than those in which you may apply D: Battle, which works only in Battles, and for those spells affecting the battle itself (in this sense, it seems closer to D: Fire from Faerie Magic).

So, I still think it's fair to have D: Battle the equivalent to D: Conc, with the restrictions above.

It can be argued the "the Hundred Years' War" is really a series of Wars; the "what exactly constitutes a War is up to the troupe" should cover this. For example, the outbreak of the Black Plague in my mind effectively "splits" the Hundred Years War" into (at least) two distinct parts. In general most "Wars" at the time - a series of battles that finally lead to a some treaty or truce or armed peace - would last more than a month, but less than a Year (Sieges being an exception). A few might last longer, but they are really a small minority of cases.

So it's a nice little bonus (as you would expect from something requiring a Virtue or Breakthrough) but nothing major, and honestly: how often would magi cast spells on armies lasting longer than a day?


What I was looking for is not a duration that last a whole campaign or crusade, even less during the entire 100 year war. I want spells to be active during MY encounters, so if I cast a wizard's sidestep it will end after the combat, and any other armour, combat spells i cast.

A maximum i was thinking that a duration that can last while i am awake (as when I am sleeping, I am not actively in a combat) , but that can bypass the sundown or sunset if needed, and that would end when the combat is over, if sooner.

Performance (Martial Ability) is a terrible choice of a performance ability anyway, so it's not a good point of comparison.

Let's compare Performance Magic (Leadership) instead, as it's unlikely the magus is going into battle totally alone... and even if they are, you use Leadership for intimidation, so it still works.

Performance Magic (Leadership) spells can be cast while giving orders. That's a significant benefit.

They have no obvious magic involved... that's three minor virtues worth of effect.

They can last longer than a single battle if you have any followers, and can be cast before entering the combat.

They can also be cast outside combat.

They have an extra chance to botch.

I think it's clear that Performance Magic (Leadership) is significantly more potent than Duration: Battle.

Maybe, but for me, Preformance Magic does not work to what I want to do. Mostly because I do not want to buy a whole new book, just because I want to do an original research.

Oh, I wasn't trying to say you should take Performance Magic, merely justifying why D: Battle makes perfect sense as equivalent to D:Conc once you've made the breakthrough.

I would say equivalent magntitude to Sun. Most battles should be over within a day, but this Duration will mean you don't have to worry about battles that begin just before dawn, or extend into twilight. Also, this Duration has the advantage that effects will expire when the battle ends. Finally, there will be rare "legendary" battles that last for seven days (or whatever) so this spell will be useful then too.

I would give some thought as to how you (your troupe) will adjudicate when a battle has begun and ended, and what the differences (if any) are between a "battle" and a "fight" and a "brawl" and a "duel", etc. I'm sure that you can make it work, but it is a bit different to most of the other Durations which are triggered on reasonably clear physical phenomena. "Battle" is a bit more ambigious.

Also, be clear about when the spells are cast (during the battle or before). To be practical, I would say something like: "the spell is cast, but is latent and does not take effect until the next battle the character fights in, and expires at the end of that battle; the latent magic expires at Moon Duration if the character has not fought in a battle before then."

Ooh, that version is definitely worth +2 magnitudes yeah, being able to prepare a whole set of spells to go off the moment the target enters battle that last until it ends :slight_smile:


Except if, you know, we go back to Dunia's original character concept and request?

...looks to me like performance magic (martial ability) is close and performance magic (leadership) is largely unrelated, wouldn't you agree?

So I'm going to stick with

or Sun-equivalent, in case that was unclear.

Storming a castle with a group of soldiers?

That's performance magic (leadership)'s specialty. It lasts until you stop leading them... which may actually be after the end of the battle.

While performance magic (martial ability) will drop off the moment you're not actively hitting or dodging someone.

So no, I wouldn't agree at all. Performance Magic (leadership) does significantly more than Duration: Battle, while covering almost everything Duration: Battle does. Which shows that Duration: Battle is reasonable as a breakthrough as a +1 duration.

But you can't use Performance magic (leadership) to fight two brigands when you are alone out on a country road.

One can take performance magic more than once, for different abilities.

Actually, you can. Just try and be intimidating, and as long as you're being intimidating you're using the Leadership skill.

Duration Battle is clearly not identical to Performance: Leadership, but it's also clearly inferior for most purposes, making it perfectly reasonable for Duration Battle to be +1.

My Tremere in that campaign, is not a leader/officer and therefore has no Leadership. She does however have 4 i single weapon with a speciality in Arabic Swords. So That is another reason why I do not want performance magic (Leadership) but a new durauin called battle.

Because I want to be able to cast all spells, regardless if i use martial weapons or not. Effects that will be in effect only as long as she is in combat, (for example wizard's sidestep, veil of invis, armour spells and later spells that enhance her agility, quickness and strength) Because she has a deficiency in Vim and will have a hard time in cancelling her own spells with perdo vim.

Dunia, no one is suggesting that your character should take Performance magic (Leadership).
Everyone agrees that your Duration: Battle is ok; people are debating about its cost.

Most people agree that you could take it as the equivalent of D:Sun, i.e. +2 magnitudes (note that you can do this without a breakthrough for Formulaic spells). People are debating whether it could be pushed down to the equivalent of D:Conc, i.e. +1 magnitude, with a Breakthrough (that would also allow it for Spontaneous magic; I think D: War could be thrown in "for free" in the same Breakthrough). To understand whether it should be "priced" at +1 magnitude or at +2 magnitudes, people are looking at different Virtues like Performance magic just as a term of comparison.

Eeesh. I find this really REALLY problematic.

Once this is allowed, one could easily have a bunch of party-Buff spells, waiting to activate. As soon as anyone strikes a blow... BOOM the "Battle" is joined and the entire party insta-Buff's; once everyone on one side has fallen/surrendered/fled... BAM, the party is normal again. And with a "Moon" worth of waiting, the casting magi can virtually-always afford to Buff to the very limits of their ability. Fatigue? Bah! What's a 2-minute rest-time when you're looking at Moon-duration???!?