Rethinking Ritual Magic

Games Discussion Ars Magica
21

The difference, if there is a chance of a random encounter at all is none. The ritual is still cast under stressful conditions. The only other possibility is that the random encounter interval might trigger a random encounter during the casting. Then what? What happens when a ritual is abandoned? Is the magus and the person being healed, if different, vulnerable during that time? I never cared for the random encounter, ever since a random encounter killed a key PC in a story I was running. It was a long time ago, but it left me struggling to come up with a different resolution and implement it while keeping the game going. I'm not saying it's impossible to do or that I didn't do it, I'm just saying PCs can do enough unpredictable stuff that having random encounters derail stories is an unnecessary burden. Also, it's a random encounter, it doesn't fit within the them of the episode, or my goals as the SG. That alone is bad. Casting a healing ritual in the middle of an episode that ends up botching is equivalent to a random encounter. Now, if I can work the random encounter or botched healing ritual into the overall story, that's great, but that doesn't always happen.

But, in the case of the other system where you roll for random encounters because of %reasons%, you have a much different setup. The random encounter would conspire to make the roll stressful, where as in a well thought out story, it stands to reason that the roll is stressful. The duration of the ritual is almost irrelevant to the circumstance creating the stressful situation. Why take two hours to do something that is in the interests of advancing the story? And if random encounters do exist AND rituals take 15 minutes per magnitude, or at least 1 hour, what happens if the interrupt the ritual half way through? Is all the vis gone, half? How does a magus disengage from a ritual? These are all unanswered questions, and it is for these reasons I think rituals need to be reworked. No one casts an Aegis moments before attack, or finishes in the nick of time, no one works healing during the attack, or if they expect an attack within the casting time.

22

One of the problem with Ritual Magic is the lack of "currency" to pay rituals with.
Time is not really an issue and vis rarity varies from troupe to troupe.
Also the possibility of catastrophic botches seems very high, or is handwaved as irrealistic by many.

My suggestion would be to add a new currency: the magus' own magical power.
When casting a ritual spell, the magus would have a penalty to all magical activities equal to the magnitude of the spell, for as long as the spell is in effect.
So in essence, to power up a ritual, a magus would have to "give a little of himself",
For example, casting a level 25 Aegis of the Hearth would bring a -5 on all lab activities and spellcasting for the year.
Wizard's Communion could split the penalty equally, so 5 magi in Communion to cast the spell would have -1 each instead.
Momentary creo rituals could cause a "magical" damage equal to their magnitude, causing a light, medium or heavy wound to the magus' magical power, with accompanying penalties to any magic rolls, that would heal following the regular rules for healing.

It adds a level of complexity and accounting for sure but on the other hand, it brings a cost for rituals cast in a story that go beyond the casting, as the magus will have a penalty for the following spellcasting rolls for a time.
And for "long-term" rituals cast outside of stories, it brings a penalty to magical activities and in the case of rituals made to help the covenant, there's an incentive to share the cost (penalty) through Wizard's Communion.

23

That leaves a problem for rituals that improve stats. They don't have a duration, and I don't relish the idea that they can happen easily once known.

24

Or look at it as to why it gets hand-waved. I think it is because of the astronomical botch dice that are used for every Ritual casting. Ritual magic casters would become very specialized with a high Gold cord value, Mastered rituals and Mercuruian Magic ( for the 1/2 vis or Botch dice cost) and perhaps several other virtues i can't think of. Cautious Sorcerer is only for Spont or Formulaic spells so not any help in this area.

If you do not want specialized caster I would remove the extra botch dice for using vis from ritual magic up to the magnitude of the spell. Any extra would add to the botch dice.

25

I think we have been discussing why casting rituals gets handwaved. Astronomical botch dice is one part of the equation, it's a big part, granted. Time also gets hand waved, too. Vis cost is almost never handwaved, but it might be forgotten. I'm all for removing the botch risk from ritual magic, but there should be a cost applied to compensate for the lack of risk, which is what I'm doing. You're just saying, ignore the botch dice from vis required by the ritual.

Rituals should be risky and they should cost something. Rituals that project a magus's (or covenant's) power out into the world should cost time and vis, much like magic items, I don't care about risk unless there is experimentation. That's the player's choice to experiment. And while casting an Aegis is also a choice (they could choose not to do so), SGs assume it is done and just move on. Ars Magica is about magi going forth from their secure places of power and projecting their will into the world around them. When the world comes to them, especially the supernatural world, they are quite secure because of the Aegis...

26

Rituals still would be risky because I would not remove all of the botch dice. Just the ones from vis. You still have time and vis cost. It would allow larger spells without a specialist.

Consider Hermes' Portal with it's 15 botch dice. A specialized caster could get it down to about 2-3 botch dice with a +4 Gold Cord, Mercurian Magic and a Mastery of the spell. That is serious investment especially in a major virtue ( as written) that is pretty bad if not the worst Hermetic major virtue.

27

And in my Greater Ritual paradigm, it would cost two magi two seasons, 15 pawns of vis, and no risk, just the annual upkeep costs.

28

Hi,

The worst Major Hermetic Virtue is probably Diedne Magic, because it is not only less effective than LLSM for a magus' first century, but it also comes with a really, really nasty Major Flaw.

The least effective Major Hermetic Virtue is still probably not Mercurian Magic, but something like Secondary Insight. Or pick yours. Goetic Sorcerer is also pretty bad; magi don't need high scores in Goetic Arts or X Lore because they have Re and Vi; but at least you're tainted, so that's something. :slight_smile:

Mercurian Magic is actually a pretty attractive virtue, RAW. It is one of the very few virtues that gets better all the time (RL time), because the authors keep adding mastery abilities that are only available to Mercurians, or possibly to people who are taught by them. MM isn't for everyone. But for a ritualist it is great, especially in a low-vis saga. It also keeps getting better all the time (game time), because if you stay on good terms with your apprentices, for example, by being their Mystagogue for the next few decades, you automatically get yourself a coterie of Mercurians that you can gather together to cast the really big stuff.

The inner circle of House Mercere is probably pretty scary, sitting on top of the Order's biggest pile of vis, which for them is doubled, should they need to act (without ever leaving their ceremonial chamber.) They potentially have ACs to anyone who has ever entrusted something important to the postal service....

Lots of better virtues, but this one is hardly bad.

Would I change it? Of course. :slight_smile: I'd change this and Diedne Magic to make them more symmetrical: Both would come with the same story Flaw: Pagan. A MM is not a real Mercurian, but is influenced; a magus with DM is not a real Diedne but is influenced by similar (and possibly antogonistic) traditions; I'd improve the benefits of both virtues and put more bite into what they cannot do well. Etc.

As for the major rituals, I'm still thinking "eh." I don't like the Aegis taking 2 seasons/year to maintain. Ugh.

The easiest way to deal with the issue of an Aegis being special is to just make it special. It's a breakthrough, after all, so it is easy enough to add a line to the spell description, "This spell is so well designed, that it does not cost botch dice except under extremely stressful conditions, or when a magus has flaws that force botch dice to be rolled."

Anyway,

Ken

29

The Aegis takes 1 season to cast, and no significant time thereafter. The only time more seasons need to be devoted to the Aegis or to recast it at a higher level, or to refine it. Maintaining the Aegis does not require additional seasons of time, merely contributions of vis. I can see how that it wasn't clear, because I didn't clearly articulate what constituted maintenance.

30

I had exactly stats improving rituals in mind when I suggested this:

Most of stats improving rituals being 7th magnitude or more, the wounds would be at least medium wounds, with -3 penalty for at least a month before you can try to recover. It's not much of a penalty if you cast only one of course, but try to cast too many too fast, and the penalties pile up rapidly. Also, wounds can get worse sometimes (would have to be rare of course). Thematically, a "wound" to a magus Gift worsening could explain how some magi (or apprentices) lost their Gift and make big momentary creo rituals less appealing then duration rituals.

31

I totally missed your comment on Creo. Shouldn't read and reply on my phone, my apologies.

So, it does damage without soaking? I'll point out that it is even more punitive than my proposal. Take the greatest of the Stat boosting rituals, CrCo 60, 12th magnitude would do a wound of 12, Heavy. It would take a season + one month + 1 week to recover from that. And what about small framed magi? And why only for things that are momentary creo, but not other rituals of high magnitude? Don't they also take a lot out of a magus? Oh, and would these wounds impose the same wound penalties to seasonal advancement?

32

Do they wound the caster or the recipient of the Cr Ritual? Can the wounds be spread out if multiple people cast the ritual?

33

While not the place for it... Mercurian Magic also comes with a sizable flaw. No spontaneous magic. Or no quick spontaneous magic because you could do a spontaneous ceremony spell. While Diedne magic is not great in spont magic they can still cast rituals. Given that in all games of Ars I have played, Spont magic is cast far far more than rituals.

34

Slow spontaneous magic is a problem, but....

a) Better that than having half the Order kill you dead if they think you're too good at spontaneous magic (and a simple forced InMe will confirm that you are Diedne.)
b) It isn't all that horrible. Unlike previous editions, you can still fast cast a defense. The most important sponts tend to happen out of combat, except for magi optimized for sponting (and even for them), so the loss isn't terrible.

Another way of looking at it: The Mercurian penalty to spontaneous magic isn't nearly as bad as Weak Spontaneous Magic, which limits magi to spont/5. But the Diedne Magic Major Flaw is a very heavy Major Flaw.

And... as Mercurian, you get to cast twice as many rituals. They don't happen that often, except for healing, and Aegis, and boosting stats.... and whatever it is that a player built his Mercurian around.

That said, if someone suggested that Mercurian Magic was a Minor Hermetic Virtue and that Diedne Magic was a Minor Story Flaw, I'd be good with that. Um, which is a good thing, since I said that once upon a time.

Anyway,

Ken

35

Mind you, It's an untried idea that I'm shooting in answer to your interesting questioning on Ritual Magic.
It might need to be calibrated in some way (more or less damage, is there soak, do you use the same table as for physical wounds, etc).
The rational I have for the wounding from momentary Creo Ritual is that you literally rip out your Gift to power up instantly that momentary ritual, compared to a duration ritual where you "lend" the power temporarily (corollary would be that such a ritual would become some sort of Arcane Connection).
And yes it is punitive: I really dislike stat boosting rituals!
On the other hand, this doesn't prevent someone from going for it.
It makes it harder and you only have to become more selective in your application of creo rituals.
Or you need a lot of friends for Wizard's Communion.

36

I'm not a fan of stat boosting rituals, either, but I'm not against them, per se. I think a season per stat boosting ritual, and the vis is a reasonable cost. So, say moving a score from 0 to 5, by someone with a CrCo 120 (or a lab text of the ritual or rituals) would take 5 months, and a minimum of 12+11+10+9+8 50 pawns of vis.
Your method would cost the same amount of vis, at a minimum. But it does take more time. Although, it might be possible, depending upon casting totals, to shortcut the time for recovery, since recovering from wounds is all wounds improving at the same time. 5 heavy wounds heal as fast as 1 heavy wound.

One thing I do like about it, is that it gives a stronger reason for the Cult of Heroes to come together and work these rituals, getting all of the Magical Mercere, not just the Mercurians involved in the ritual, but then that can be done in my method, too, as they would be lab assistants...

37

As long as the fast cast takes 15 minutes per magnitude I think you are fine. Should be a fun time watching Mercurian Dimicatio. Otherwise no fast cast defense for the Mercurians according to RAW.

38

You're forgetting about formulaic fast-casting.

You can master a spell in order to be able to fast-cast it.

39

That is true. But that still means spending one season to learn a spell, and then another season to master it. 2 seasons over 15 minutes per magnitude is a pretty big investment of time. Also, keep in mind one of the easiest methods of acquiring fast casting is with Flawless Magic, a path foreclosed for being Mercurian, at least without some other mystery initiations in the Neo Mercurians or something.

Ideally, fast cast defense should be done with mastered spells. There are a lot of spells to master, however.

40

Perhaps you're playing an older edition of the game: There is nothing to prevent a Mercurian from, like, Mastering a Formulaic spell or three and choosing the fast-cast ability.