Revenant archetype v. 2.0

Games Discussion Feng Shui
1

Release of Out for Blood has inspired me to make a revamp of a much-cherished character type that I made sometime ago. It is a through rebuilding of the Ghost character type ("undead" hybrid user of Creature Powers and Sorcery) to make it more purely action-adventure oriented and less seduction oriented and to achieve a true balance between the two types of schticks (which also requires the character type to have decent proficiency in Martial Arts or a plausible substitute to use most Creature Powers schticks). Think more Brandon Lee in the Crow and less Joey Wong in Chinese Ghost Story. It may entirely replace or be used alongside the Ghost Archetype.

Without further ado...

The character type is developed according to the following archetype-building template:
• Attributes start: Bod 5, Chi 0, Mnd 5, Ref 5.
• You have 6 Primary attribute points and 6 Secondary attribute points to spend, but should leave at least 3 points for the player to choose for themselves. They can be traded for other things (see last point).
• You get 30 Skill points to add - cap for any of the main AV skills is 14 (and each must have at least one at 12+). If you have one at 14, you shouldn't really add any other main AV ones at higher than 11 and without a [Max] or = on them. As with attributes, leave some points over for the player to spend; between 4 and 8 is a good number. Skill points can be traded for other things, too (see last point).
• You get five schticks to give. You can pre-select up to three of them, or trade for other stuff (see last point).
• Default Wealth level is Working Stiff. Poor gives an extra schtick, Rich costs one.
• Special limitations (such as inability to be healed by standard means or to learn Sorcery) give an extra schtick.
• The formulas for moving stuff around are as follows:
• 1 Primary attribute = 1 Schtick = 5 Skill points.
• 1 Primary attribute = 3 Secondary attributes.
• 2 Secondary attributes = 3 Skill points.

Revenant

“Death didn’t stop me once, it only made me stronger”.

In life, you were a staunch individualist or a self-driven person that was determined to make one's damned best to find happiness and make the world just and safe for anyone and anything you cared for. Maybe you were an honest cop in a corrupt department, an activist fighting corporate despoiling of the land, a vigilante striking at crime in your neighborhood, or a rebel fighting against an oppressive government. Anyway, your fervent strive for justice and happiness run afoul of the powers that be, and you were felled by treachery and superior force. Even death could not keep down your conviction and thirst for justice and revenge, or your determination to care for what you had left behind, so you refused to let go of earthly cares and find peace. Your soul roamed the Underworld, learning all kinds of things about supernatural powers and the secrets of magic, until you discovered how you could break the bonds of death and walk the Earth again. You rose, and discovered that in your zest to return, you had let the powers of the Underworld trick you: you are no more a human, but a frightening supernatural creature animated by magic, and your body wears the face of a stranger. However, never one to let stings of misfortune fell you for long, you discovered how to master the innate supernatural powers of your form and your instinctive proficiency for sorcery, and how to cloak your monstrous nature in the appearance of humanity. In time, you returned to fight for justice and freedom with redoubled power, but you discovered how deep and large corruption and oppression may run. Besides the ones that caused your death, criminals, tyrants, and monsters abuse the innocents in every land, and the discovery of the Secret War has revealed you that the good fight must be brought to every juncture as well.

Juncture: Any

Bod 5
Chi 0 [Mag = 8]
Mind 5
Ref 5

Divide 6 points among primary attributes, spending no more than 3 on any one attribute.

Creature Powers +5 (=13)
Detective +4 (9) [Max 12]
Martial Arts +8 (=13) (not formally trained)
Sorcery +5 (=13)

Add 5 skill bonuses. Change Detective to Intrusion if desired. Replace Martial Arts with the Feral Strength Schtick (may use Creature Powers AV to make Martial Arts Attacks except for Fu powers) and 3 extra skill bonuses if desired.

Schticks:

Junctures: 69, Netherworld

Transformation x2 (human; does not return to normal form by doing Creature Powers checks)
3 Creature Powers
2 Sorcery schticks

Junctures: 1850, 1996, 2056

Transformation (human)
2 Creature Powers
2 Sorcery schticks
Unique Schtick:
No Place Like Home (x2): You never suffer a juncture penalty to your Sorcery or Creature Powers AV when in your home juncture.

Limitation:

Magical Healing: Revenants cannot be healed by characters using the Medicine skill, unless they learned the Medicine skill in the 69 juncture.

Wealth Level: poor.

2

I like it but I think it's over powered. Sorcery, Martial Arts and Creature Powers at =13? Without having to spend any of your 5 skill point bonus points to get there? I think having all of these and then, I think it was, 5 schticks as well...

I would myself, if going with all of these attributes and skills, give the character a more severe limitation. After all the character is for purposes "dead" so you could either have a smaller Mind Attribute to represent lack of neural function - or that they are singularly focused on revenge (thinking of the crow here) and can't think "out of the box" perhaps. Either that or limit what they can raise it too.

Maybe?

3

The main combat-based archetypes tend to fall into these categories:

15 best combat skill, 5 schticks (Killer)
14 best combat skill, 13 other combat skill, around 3 schticks (Ex-Special Forces)
13 best combat skill, 12 other combat skill, around 5 schticks (Abomination)
13 best combat skill, 12 for 2 other combat skills, around 3 schticks (Magic Cop)

There are a few that fall off the curve, but for obvious reasons.

A 13, 13, 13 with 7 CP and Sorcery schticks is way off the curve.

I'd say either go for

13, 12, 12 combat skills and 3 schticks (with transformation coming out of that allotment)

or

13, 12 combat skills and 5 schticks (again with Transformation coming out of that allotment).

I'd also say lose the distinction based on time period- No Place Like Home might be irrelevant in AD 69 (unless there's a critical shift) but I don't think it's worth the extra complication of separating it out.

4

Well, to begin with the archetype has been devised according to the template-building rules that I posted. I frankly deem them fairly balanced, and a better basis to create archetypes than eyeballing them in comparison with canon ones, with their vast (and unfair) differences in character point total.

Anyway, to address your specific objections:

There are some issues of game balance and archetype concept that I find indispensable and non-negotiable. The first is that "service" schticks that only really provide RP bonuses (such as Transformation to make a character look human and allow PC group cohesion) and provide no significant combat or "face" additional abilities should never be charged against the normal default allowance of schticks, that are reserved for real character abilities. The second is that the character should be fairly well proficient, both as AV and number of schticks go, at creature powers and sorcery alike. In this perspective, the AV for combat abilities should be the typical one for hybird non-specialists (13, I assume), and the number of "real" schticks should the typical 5, a mix of creature powers and sorcery ones (assumed to be 3 of the former and 2 of the latter for reasons of concept and balance). The archetype finds itself with a third combat skill, Martial Arts, for one reason alone: that skill is really necessary to make the character able to use most creature powers with any decent effectiveness. The archetype is not really meant to be a skilled martial artist, that skill is only there to allow the character to use one-half of its niche, creature powers. Now, Out for Blood may allow a way out of this dilemma, namely a very nice schtick, Feral Strength, that allows to bypass the need to buy a third combat skill to use most creature power schticks. Of course, it is an utilitarian schtick that does not really add any extra character ability, only plugs a rules loophole, so it wholly falls under the "not out of the normal 5" hard rule.

Following this guidelines, that are really necessary to preserve the integrity of the concept, I may be quite willing to make an exception to my own template building rules and remove some skill points from the template.

Here is the revised archetype:

Revenant

“Death didn’t stop me once, it only made me stronger”.

Juncture: 69, Netherworld

Bod 5
Chi 0 [Mag = 8]
Mind 5
Ref 5

Divide 6 points among primary attributes, spending no more than 3 on any one attribute.

Creature Powers +5 (=13)
Detective +4 (9) [Max 12]
Sorcery +5 (=13)

Add 5 skill bonuses. Change Detective to Intrusion if desired.

Schticks:

Transformation x2 (human; does not return to normal form by doing Creature Powers checks)
Feral Strength (may use Creature Powers AV to make Martial Arts Attacks except for Fu powers)
3 Creature Powers
2 Sorcery schticks

Limitation:

Magical Healing: Revenants cannot be healed by characters using the Medicine skill, unless they learned the Medicine skill in the 69 juncture.

Wealth Level: poor.

As you may see, the archetype lost one combat AV skill at 13 and 8 skill points. The reduction is substantial, I think. If you deem a further reduction of abilities necessary, customizable skill points may be further reduced to 3 (but no more), albeit reluctantly, as this further sacrifices non-combat character customization. I'm not going to consider any other reduction in AVs or number of schticks, as they are indispensable to concept. At the very most I may consider, however, converting the double Transformation into a unique schtick that gives the same cosmetic benefits, but does not even allow to change attributes between forms (which may give character optimization benefits) or has some other minor drawback (e.g. the character keeps a single unchangeable but concealable inhuman feature). Double Transformation is necessary for concept: the character, like a Ghost, is more humanlike than most supernatural creatures, and hence can use creature powers schticks without looking monstrous (well except when the powers themselves are blatantly inhuman themselves, like Tentacles or Insubstantial; most creature powers schticks are not so, however, not more so than Sorcery schticks, anyway). And use of Feral Stregth means the character makes Creature Powers checks all the time.

For semplicity, I can drop the Juncture customization. However, this means that Junctures of origin have to be limited to 69 and Netherworld. Otherwise, No Place like Home would need to be reintroduced, since magical/supernatural archetypes from modern Junctures are immune to their own home Juncture' modifiers. And those extra schticks would wreck the careful balance of the archetype after the reductions made above.

5

Yessss, but it still doesn't detract from the fact that you've got a character who has a high AV in sorcery, creature powers and martial arts. There's no reason why they can't be a lot lower. If you want to represent that fact that they have martial arts (but are not the most powerful in the world - which starting characters in Feng Shui are) you could always have it at around =8. This would still be seen as better than most normal people in the world..

Whilst I agree that many creature powers require martial arts you could always have it for your game that these go off the creature powers score - I think you're right in saying Feral Strength is a patch for Feng Shui really, I think Queex will probably agree, after all he's obviously seen the problem and that's why he's written up a power for it. - or you could take different creature powers.

It kind of depends really - are you making this character for someone elses game or for your own? If it's your own game you could just rule that all Creature Schticks go off the CP score. If it's for someone elses game, just make sure the GM agrees.

To think about it - there's no reason why most sorcery powers can't be re-jigged to become creature powers too but only if you wanted.

As for having the ability to use creature powers in human form - well I think it depends on what they are. As far as I see it I don't see there thematically being, for example, a human who can turn into a creature. So I would say that the human is the normal form and the creature is what it becomes. (think maybe werewolf). Perhaps to get rid of the 9 shot transformation costs you could buy transformation again for each of your creatures abilities you want to use in human form. (within reason and with GM approval).

Perhaps they would only be activated for a certain amount of shots, or would cost a magic point (temp. as with normal cost of say using sorcery in a hurry). For example: Harry who can transform into a big tentacle blob has taken another transformation power. This one allows him, at a 3 shot cost, to have tentacles shoot out of his chest (normal tentacle rules). If Harry spends a magic point he can have these tentacles stay out for the rest of the fight without the normal 9 shot tranformation time.

6

If Transformation is pre-selected for the human form, it all but loses almost entirely the foreseeable power and versatility bonuses you speak of. If you further remove the ability to switch attributes between forms, it almost entirely loses them. It practically becomes a RP-only fluff ability, except for the crappy possibility to undergo a time-wasting and incapacitating transformation to reap a bonus at Intimidation checks, pathetic. Frankly, things would work much better if all supernatural creatures had the power to switch to human forms, since the gammes but mandates it, and charging a most precious schtick slot for a patch is abusive. So the issue could be dealt with a unique schtick version of Transformation II that is pre-selectede for human form and does not allow to switch between attributes. Heck, it could also make it so that the character is lockedin human form, and cannot switch to monstrous form and use bonus to Intimidation except with great effort.

You may notice that the revised build I've later posted drops Martial Arts entirely and uses Feral Strength. So now it's a character with an AV in sorcery and creature powers as high as hybrid niche characters typically get. Heck, the archetype as written does charge character points for such cosmetic patch schticks. It just balances them with non-combat skill points, unfavorable wealth level and special limitation, instead of combat skill AV and normal schtick slots. It's only fair for fluff stuff.

Unacceptable. The creature powers that don't use Martial Arts AV are an handful and none of the most commonly used.

I'd prefer to do it with as little explicit house rules as possible.

No. The core of the concept, powerswise, is that it uses creature powers and sorcery equally. As far as I'm concerned, the Ghost archetype is poorly built to do that, for many reasons (such as the stupid railroading a very broad concept into being seduction-oriented).

7

err..Well don't remove the core rule book ability to switch attributes between forms then

I'm not sure I get most of that. I regards to working much better if all supernatural creatures had the power to switch to human forms, that's like saying it would be much better for superheroes if they could all fly. Not all GMC supernaturals are going to transform to human form (some are just monsters/demons.

PC characters who want to play "monstrous creatures" in "the modern world" have the choice of playing them as they are, or by taking a power that allows them to change to a human form. If they don't want to pay for a schtick that allows them to take human form, then they will have to put up with looking like a monstrous creature. That's the point of playing a monstrous creature. To say that transformation should be "free" is like saying you want to play a arcanowave pc that doesn't make mutation checks, or a magcic user who doesn't want to deal with the possibility of backlash.

But

if you want to ignore the rules, remember this feel free to do so. There's no reason why you can't just be a human with creature powers if you or your GM feels this appropriate, or is fun for group and doesn't put other players at a significant disadvantage.

.

Yes, but I was addressing your point at the time you made it, not the revised template that you feel you are being forced to make - and you're not by the way. If it works for you, your GM, doesn't over power other characters then more power to you. Literally in some respects.

that's why it was optional.

That's simply not true. If it were you wouldn't have house ruled an entire character creation system (which is advised against), nor would you be making changes to the creature powers as they stand. Your first post is explicit house ruling.

Okay then, ask yourself where the sorcery comes from - where the magic lies etc. Creature Powers could be seen as magical in their own right. Justify the sorcery aspect and I'll buy your argument.

Personally I don't like the ghost either, but then again I don't allow my players to play ghosts. When they're dead they're dead and gen up a new character in 5 minutes using the templates of the game (because that's the way it's meant to be run and I like that).

You seem to be very angry with the way that Feng Shui is written. Sure there are many things in it that don't seem to make a lot of sense (like the power to control supernatural creatures with summoning based off their will power alone*), and there are also parts that aren't too clear but as a rules lite system I think that GM's either need to fudge or make minor house rules to make things make sense for them.

I think the main problem with the rev. character template that you made is that compared to templates in the Feng Shui core as written it is overpowered. However, as I have said, if you are using your own character creation builder and not allowing normal templates this basically gives each player the ability to have very similar stats then they are going to be more balanced over all. If this is the case then there's no problem with your original template.

Anyway, don't be angry with anyone giving you a critique of a template that you have made using your own character generation system. Queex gave you a basic run down of the majority of stat/skill spreads used as written, if you don't like them then go with your gut. If it works for you then that's just great. Anything that you put on a public forum will be scrutinized - that's why you put it up to start with right?

That's all I have to say on the matter.

*I think I remember reading somewhere that it was houseruled that summoning went against the creatures highest AV instead. - If you're interested.

8

My point is not that Transformation, as used for the purposes I'm using it for, should have some significant crunchy usefulness, it is that it should not be paid out of the normal schtick slot allowance. Probably Transformation-as-combat-worthy-shapeshifting, and Transformation-as-ability-to-pass-as-a-human should be two different abilities, since the roles they play in-game are wholly different. Again, these issues are much better dealt with if you deal with FS character-building with a point-buy system.

PC characters that play supernatural creatures already pay a substantial drawback to their powers in being susceptible to Summoning and Influence alike, while the other character types are only vulnerable to Influence. That's a substantial drawback, equal to the ones you quoted for arcanowave or sorcery users. It is not necessary (and it is unfair) to charge them too for an ability that is only necessary for RP party cohesion.

Same place as the Ghost's Sorcery comes from: inborn instinctual proficiency to yield magical energies in all kinds of flexible uses, while Creature Powers are inborn magical tricks fixed in one form, that are awakened by the world-changing experience of going through the veil and returning.

I'm fond of the Ghost archetype, in principle. What I can't stand about it is that it is built with a strict seduction focus which cripples the combat abilities to make room for it, in order to closely resemble the female lead in Chinese Ghost Story I-III (some of my preferred fantasy movies of all time, by the way), while ghost characters can obviously be built around revenge, or protecting someone or something else as a focus.

Overpowered ? Well, let's try this version of my archetype concept instead. Take a good look and then honestly tell me if this would be really overpowered in comparison to the Magic Cop or the Abomination.

Revenant

“Death didn’t stop me once, it only made me stronger”.

In life, you were a staunch individualist or a self-driven person that was determined to make one's damned best to find happiness and make the world just and safe for anyone and anything you cared for. Maybe you were an honest cop in a corrupt department, an activist fighting corporate despoiling of the land, a vigilante striking at crime in your neighborhood, or a rebel fighting against an oppressive government. Anyway, your fervent strive for justice and happiness run afoul of the powers that be, and you were felled by treachery and superior force. Even death could not keep down your conviction and thirst for justice and revenge, or your determination to care for what you had left behind, so you refused to let go of earthly cares and find peace. Your soul roamed the Underworld, learning all kinds of things about supernatural powers and the secrets of magic, until you discovered how you could break the bonds of death and walk the Earth again. You rose, and discovered that in your zest to return, you had let the powers of the Underworld trick you: you are no more a human, but a frightening supernatural creature animated by magic, and your body wears the face of a stranger. However, never one to let stings of misfortune fell you for long, you discovered how to master the innate supernatural powers of your form and your instinctive proficiency for sorcery, and how to cloak your monstrous nature in the appearance of humanity. In time, you returned to fight for justice and freedom with redoubled power, but you discovered how deep and large corruption and oppression may run. Besides the ones that caused your death, criminals, tyrants, and monsters abuse the innocents in every land, and the discovery of the Secret War has revealed you that the good fight must be brought to every juncture as well.

Juncture: 69, Netherworld

Bod 5
Chi 0 [Mag = 8]
Mind 5
Ref 5

Divide 6 points among primary attributes, spending no more than 3 on any one attribute.

Creature Powers +5 (=13)
Detective +4 (9) [Max 12]
Sorcery +5 (=13)

Add 5 skill bonuses. Change Detective to Intrusion if desired.

Schticks:

Feral Strength (may use Creature Powers AV to make Martial Arts Attacks except for Fu powers)
2 Creature Powers
2 Sorcery schticks

Unique Schtick:

Human Masquerade (character can take human form at will as per the Transformation schtick, and does not return to normal form by doing Creature Powers checks, but cannot change attributes between forms)

Limitation:

Magical Healing: Revenants cannot be healed by characters using the Medicine skill, unless they learned the Medicine skill in the 69 juncture.

Wealth Level: poor.

9

I could say it was over powered - but actually I think that you've got it about right now. Possibly even let you have your innate mag score a little higher (if your chi score and skills didn't go up).

The Abomination as written I do feel is a little over powered - however, even in the write up it says you're going to have to justify it to the GM. You might be able to use one of those creature sticks to change into a human form (leaving you with 1 creature and 3 arcanowave schticks) but I'd probably rule that you would look like a human but with (depending on the type) easily visible arcanowave ports/attachments. You'd probably get away with playing it in the 2056 juncture or netherworld, but the inherent problems with playing such a monster are obvious when you come out of the 2056 juncture/netherworld (although you're still going to get a whole bunch of folk riled at the sight of you, even in the future (most folk don't have arcanowave..or tentacles - and in the netherworld you could well be mistaken for a jammer...).

Magic Cop. Well I agree. Or also known as No no no, no you can't play that. Most horribly overpowered thing in the entire Feng Shui universe. Not only this but if you go with the back for seconds write up (which robin laws himself says is the right write up of the character skill wise*) you have MA at 12 as well. If I were to allow this character it wouldn't have the unique schtick as I find it unworkable in practice. The ability to revert all transformed animals, dismiss or supernatural creatures and wipe out a whole bunch of mooks and be able to rely on chi to gain extra positives to help you be useful against higher powered named characters is horrible and potentially game breaking. - unless you're all playing Magic Cops and going up against Dragons.

As for the summoning thing - go with what Queex said, highest AV for summoning. Perhaps you could go further and say no named character can be summoned. I've always hated summoning, but then I hated it in Vampire the masequrade too when it was me that had it!

  • I remember reading that this was his opinion, but where I can't cite at the moment.
10

Glad that my ideas can eventually match the exacting review of my fellow forumites. :smiley:

No, I would not raise the Mag attribute above 8, for two reasons: it keeps the damage-dealing prowess of Blast and destructive Creature Powers roughly balanced, and hence the archetype's abilities balanced betwen Sorcery and Creature Powers, which is very important to the concept; and all similar archetypes have Mag at 8.

Seems a sensible idea. As a matter of fact, Iwas a bit uncertain whether throwing in the writeup of Human Masquerade some uncanny feature as an hallmark of revenants' supernatural status, but then I decided it was unnecessary, made things too complex, and nerfed the unique schtick a bit too much. For arcanowave ports it is different.

It was written in the FAQ.