Revised Theroy of Limits after all the source books are known

Updated 2023-12-03 based on feedback. Thank you everybody for your contributions

What would the Order of Hermes change about how it thinks about the Limits knowing about all the stuff in later source books, even if they haven't integrated it into hermetic theory and thus can't actually break the limits yet?

The Limit of Vis is believed to be a Flaw in Bonisagus's Theory. TMRE: Hermetic Alchemy allows you to extract aura of any form of vis from the same aura, and Ancient Magic: Grigori Magic letting you use one type of vis for another few claim this is a true, impossible, limit instead of just difficult.

The Limit of Energy is a Flaw in hermetic theory that when resolved can be merged into the Limit of Creation. Hedge Magic: Witchs allows you to restore Energy via a vis-based ritual, making it effectively part of the Limit of Creation. Additionally, mundane Theriacs (A&A:77) allow fatigue to be restored. Theriacs do not require vis, but do take a season to produce however many doses the philosipher is capable of, as well as unspecified mundane components.
Note that while their is a spell in GotF:39 that also breaks this limit, it is explicitly stated that "no-one has managed to sucessfully cast it",

The Limit of Aging is similarly believed to be at least a partial flaw in the theory. The Al-Iskar (The Cradle and Crecent) and the Mercurian Purification ritual (Mythic Locations) provide the strongest evidence of this, while the Fountain of Youth providing another example. While the Hyperborean Hymn Eternal Youth of the Sun (AM:114) doesn't remove aging points or effect decrepitude, it does prevent age from increasing and removes the need to make aging checks while under its effect which effectively bypasses the limit. It is now believed that much like the limit of Creation, the Limit of Aging can be broken only using vis and will be folded into the new Limit of the Essential Nature with enough research.

the Limit of Creation can likely be further reduced by breakthroughs in rune/vitkar magic (Ancient Magic, Hedge Magic), allowing effects currently limited to rituals to be done with ordinary spells. What, if any, effects are truly limited to ritual magic is a topic of many, many debates.

There is a new Variation of the Limit of Essential Nature. Well, Many new variants, but in essence it is believed that the Essential Nature of all things that are of Earth/the Terrestrial Sphere is to change, and thus the Essential Nature can be changed, but only through Experiences or with the Use of Vis.
Learned Magicains (Hedge Magic & Art and Academe) can change the essential nature. Creo Corpus and Mentem rituals can change a human's essential nature and increase their characteristics. Invested and Lesser enchantments change the essential nature of the enchanted item, but require vis. Charged items don't, but they aren't essentially changed are they? just temporarily given power. In contrast, Mystery Initiation allows you to change your essential nature with an experience, as does original research and breakthroughs.
The limits of Aging and Creation are believed to derive from this limit, as to Create you must Create the essential nature. Perdo allows the destruction of things without the use of vis because it is in the Essential Nature of all things of the Terrestrial Sphere to decay and eventually perish -- even if, as is the case of gold, only very, very slowly.

The Limit of Experience (from Houses of Hermies: Societas:68) the creation of Abilities using magic is currently beyond the limit of Hermetic understanding. is now included and also believed to derive from the limit of the essential nature.

The Limit of the Divine is unchanged.

The Limit of the Soul is unchanged, much to magi's annoyance. Between Inscription upon the soul, External Souls, assorted methods of becoming immortal which seem to either transform the soul or replace it with something else, and they can destroy souls as while "Angels and Demons are nothing but immortal Souls" (ArM:80) and hermetic magic can destroy them (ArM:160 demon's eternal oblivion) (Though no one yet has attempted to do this to an angel and left a record of it.). Magic seems to be able to do everything to a soul except create it.
Note that it seems many storyguides alter this so Angels and Demons don't have souls, or are banished back to the Dominion/Inferno instead of being permanently destroyed.

The Limit of True Feeling is now believed to be part of the Limit of the Divine, or possibly the Limit of the Soul, as even vis-based magic cannot create True Love, True Friendship, or True Faith.
There are two points of contention on this: First Binding a familiar creates true friendship between the magus and the familiar. (ArM:105) However, most argue that before you bind the familiar "you must genuinely admire or even love the animal in question, and it must trust you freely under no coercion" (ArM:104); as such it is generally believed that they must already be close to true friend before the bonding can begin, and that the season of close collaboration ensures that at the end they are true friends.
Second, there are records of one maga rumored to be capable of transferring feelings of True Love and True Friendship (though not true faith). (GotF:40), though it is "likely to remain unique to her". Exactly how to reword the limit is debated with only one known example, and some argue that this is only possible because of her connection to Faerie, and could thus do things that Magic alone cannot.

The Limit of the Infernal is still debated, but with the looser limit of the Essential Nature the arguments now believe that either a) the infernal originally came from the divine, and still contains a core of that divine nature, much as human souls do. b) the infernal are exploiting a flaw in hermetic theory that could be closed. c) a ritual effect should be able to break this limit, but in either case the breakthrough would require experimenting with the infernal which is a horrible idea even madmen would avoid.

The Limit of Time and the Limit of the Lunar Sphere are unchanged, as are the hypotheses on why.

the Limit of Arcane Connections is now firmly believed to be a flaw with Bonisagus’s Theory due to the many effects that break it, including sensory magic (HoM:MC), Grugachan Improved Voice Range(Hedge Magic), Defixio's Unlimited Range (Ancient Magic), and the Summon Animals ability (Houses of Hermies: Societates)

The Limit of Warping is of greater interest now that the Limit of Aging seems to be a solvable problem. Unfortunately, The only Insight seems to be the Fountain of Youth (Mythic Locations). Many Magi hope it derives from the Limit of the Essential Nature, as that would allow ritual magic to allow humans to live indefinitely. Others believe it to be derived from the limit of the Divine, and take comfort that magic is a manifestation of divine power. Some still think that while reducing warping may be impossible (or impossibly difficult), averting it might not be.

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A few observations:

The Limit of the Soul may well be unchanged. It's just that you have to understand what "soul" means. Just as "Inscription upon the soul" from TMRE does not really affect the "immortal soul" but rather the spirit, it may well be that the Gruagach "external soul" refers to something that's not quite the "soul" in the Limit.

The Limit of Energy has another big "hole": mundane theriacs from A&A. It has a lesser hole in the Path of Energy from GotF (p.39).

The limit of True Feeling can also be broken, or at least sidestepped, via a Forest Path (GotF p.40). Plus, technically, binding a familiar creates True Friendship between the magus and the familiar; though one could argue that it's actually the other way round, and that a magus can only bind a creature to whom he has sufficient affinity that True Friendship will blossom naturally.

And there are many more examples of the violation of the Limit of Arcane Connections, some even partially integrated in Hermetic Magic (e.g. Sensory Magic, from HoH:MC, the Bjornaer chapter).

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Vitkar Magic should also offer insights on how to make "true and natural change" (HM, p125) without virtus usage. It is not proposed in the section "Hermetic Integration", yet, it is clearly described in the section I quoted, including the possibility to enchant a sword to make it more deadly, yet without making it magical thus requiring to bypass magical resistance.

As of limit of aging, I like the proposal in Mysteries regarding Immortality: part of being immortal is becoming immutable, which means that learning, changing, evolving becomes more difficult. It is a nice balance, with its own internal logic within the paradigm of Mythic Europe.

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I agree that the limit of the Soul remains unchanged, but not the rest of the explanation. Lets remember what the limit entails; the act of creation of an Immortal Soul. Hermetic Magic is already capable of affecting souls in limited fashions; Angels and Demons alike are beings of pure soul, yet both can be affected and in the case of Angels (curiously enough) permanently destroyed.

Since Magic can interact with souls, and given the description of Gruagachan's External Soul, there is nothing to indicate what they're manipulating isn't the soul. To my knowledge, Ars does tend to make the distinction when needed, but we have nothing like that here.

It is also worth noting that what the Gruagachan have is but a slimmer of ancient magics long lost. The Pictish Priesthood of Sluagh were said to be able to conjure the shades of the dead, as well as manipulate souls through their mysteries, through which they were able to perform true reincarnation.

TL;DR
Its not that Souls can't be affected or controlled with Magic, they just can't be created. Hermetics are just very limited at this for some presumably very Christian reasons.

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Oh, angels don't have souls. They're not embodied. They have spirit, intelligence and will, but not souls. Even if they had them, being disembodied they'd not have anywhere to keep them and, post moracula, they'd not be able to change them.

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That's a tricky consequence of Aristotle's theory of souls, which latest Thomas took over into his theology.
To scholars around 1220 such things are far more complex and insecure.

pg 80 of the corebook under the the limit of the Soul states that:
"Angels and demons are nothing but immortal souls."

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Well, that needs an erratum. That's a literal heresy

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In the 2nd half of the 13th century that becomes pretty Cathar indeed ...

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I don't see anything wrong about a particular "heresy" being metaphysically "right" where the Church is wrong. The pope won't be infallible for a long time :slight_smile:
I would rather not have this changed in the errata. Otherwise, you'd probably need follow-up errata stating that, due to some additional limit of magic, Hermetic magic can create neither angels nor demons. "Demons and angels are souls" is a much cleaner solution.

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Being able to create demons would be a funny house rule for a (probably short) campaign about incredibly powerful diablolists

I suppose magi do have access to some of this via creation of magical creatures though..some interesting possibilities there

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In addition to what Ezzelino said, many of the Roman Catholic beliefs are already clearly wrong; magic and faerie are very much real and have power behind them, as do the Pagan Gods of old (clearly not big G levels, but its still there). There are heresies that enjoy divine sanction (Cathars) and the fact Divine also sanctions Muslims and Jews gives the Pope hissy fits.

Ah! But there is a way for a Hermetic to create creatures of Infernal Might :smiling_imp:.
Corrupted Beasts can arise from exposure to Infernal Warping. Granted, its not a direct creation. One of the sample beasts, the Demonic Steed, is created by an Infernalist Magus with repeated castings of a corrupted version of Steed of Vengence. So...all you need is either Chthonic Magic for infernal warping, or a Corrupted spell!

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That's fair I suppose, but I would assume warping based effects would be at least somewhat random, while creating the creatures explicitly through the normal channels let's you specify the details, which is where the really high power comes from, essentially you can use your Re(Cr)Vi total(plus a little time) to cast malefica

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Om a semi related note, at one point I tried to catalogue all the outright and implied breakthroughs in the supplements. Some are in fact more subtle than others.

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