I was reading over the rules for ring spells. It is the same target as individual. For formulaic spells that seems appropriate. You could probably get a couple of targets inside the ring ... but there would be times where drawing a ring around the target would be really hard (combat for example). The rules also strongly discourage large rings for formulaic spells (you have to make some pretty tough rolls to slow cast the spell long enough to make a big ring, and if you fail any of the rolls the spell automatically botches). But for ritual spells?
They usually take hours to cast. What is to stop someone from drawing rings big enough to affect groups, rooms, or even structures? Why have a spell that can heal 1 guy, when you could draw a ring and heal 10's or hundreds of people, with the same spell level and vis cost? I can't offhand think of a good reason to ever get group, room, or structure for some ritual spells (permanent stat boosts for example). Of course, I would argue that large ring ritual spells get a few extra botch dice. But still ... it appears the designers strongly discouraged large rings for formulaic spells ... and no such thing exists for ritual spells. An oversight ... not important considering how infrequently ritual spells are cast because of the vis requirement? Any thoughts
If you're drawing a big ring don't you have a the same chance of loosing concentration and botching the spell regardless if the spell is ritual or formulaic?
If you're drawing a big ring don't you have a the same chance of loosing concentration and botching the spell regardless if the spell is ritual or formulaic?
No. Main book page 112: You may move 10 paces per round while casting the spell... which means you can only trace a circle with a diameter of less than 10 paces for a forumulaic spell. If you are casting a formulaic spell, to draw a big ring requires you too slow-cast the spell, which requires concentration checks. Ritual spells on the other hand naturally take hours to cast (15 minutes per spell level).
Even if you only took 1 step a round ... you could trace a pretty big ring.
If I remember correctly there is a note on Creo that states that it allows only individual or group targets. (I used to think as you did on using ring for stat-boosting spells)
The note on creo specifically refers to creo spells that create something. Creo spells are not the only spells where circle ritual seems to be too good. What about mists of change. Why use boundary target instead of circle? The spell takes 3 hours to cast anyways. You cant trace a pretty big area in 3 hours.
"the casting of a non-ritual spll may be extended to allow the drawing of a large ring. However, the caser must make INT + concentration rolls of 6+ every round to maintain concentration on the spell, and if someone breakes the ring before the spell is completed the spell automatically botches"
I don't think that anything can be gained from arguing about the meaning of the period or of the word "however". But I do not interpret the second sentance as refering only to formulaic spells (although I see how you could).
hmm, I had been assuming that the concentration checks were necessary because the spell was being slow-cast ... but your interpretation is certainly resonable. Let's explore the system under your interpretation. For formulaic circle or ring spells ...
if your concentration + int is less than 6, then you have at least a 10% chance of botching the spell... even if they only spent 1 round casting the spell. I think it would be unlikely anyone would want a spell that has such a high change of botching. I guess you could decide that concentration checks are only necessary after the first round. However,
ritual circle or ring spells still have big problems. Now, even for the lowest level ritual (20), you have to make 600 concentrations rolls. If these are stress rolls (the die for casting ritual spells is always a stress die so I would assume so), then the chance for botch is extremely high. If these are not stress rolls, then any mage with a good concentration will always succeed.
In short ... After reading the section on page 112 again, I agree that your interpretation of the meaning is quite resonable ... but I am still not happy with how circle or ring ritual spells work.
I do appreciate you chiming in on the question.
Has anyone seen a character with circle / ring ritual spells in play? How did your troupe decide they worked?
If you have a concentration +Int of less than 6, why are you trying to cast big/long/complicated spells? Not all skills are listed as necessary, but game play shows that all magi should have certain skills if they want to be a good magus. I think this is a great example of why Magi should try to get at least a 3 in concentration.
I would not allow a magus to skip the first round roll.
First, Ars5 p 114 says "Ritual spells are at least level 20, even if the level calculations would make them lower"
So the lowest level ritual is 20.
Second, I don't believe you are reading the description correctly.
It reads: "The casting of a NON-RITUAL spell may be extended out to allow the drawing of a large circle."
It goes on to detail that a magus can move 5' per second or 10 paces a round.
This means for a NON-RITUAL spell, the number of concentration rolls is dependant on the size of the circle drawn, not the level of the spell or the time it takes to cast a formulaic spell.
So if a magus wants to draw a circle that is 10 paces in diameter, it will take them one round and one concentration roll. A circle 20 paces in diameter would take two rounds and two concentration rolls.
The concentration roll is to "...maintain concentration on the spell..." and in practice is nearly (but not) the same as 'slow casting.'
I understand your frustration and consider this a good question. Upon closer inspection, I see no ritual: circle/ring spells in the book. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Now the rules don't say that it can't be done (make a ritual with ring/circle) , but it does appear that they could be difficult to accomplish. Furthermore, as I read it, the ruleing on Rings only applies to Non-Ritual spells.
However, if the reading of non-ritual casting of Ring is also true for Ritual spells, then the number of concentration rolls is still dependant on the size of the circle and not the time it takes to cast the Ritual.
Consider this Ring says, "a ring MUST BE ACTUALLY DRAWN while the spell is being cast." Circle says, "the spell affects everything drawn within a ring drawn by the magus AT THE TIME of the casting...."
It does NOT say the drawing of the circle/ring must take the SAME TIME AS the casting of the ritual. So again, a 20th lvl Ritual (the min lvl a Ritual can be) would take 75 minutes to cast. If the ring drawn is 10 paces across, then the Ring would take one round to drawn and require one concentration roll.
If one wanted to make a HUGE circle, it is likely 'easier' to bump the level to Boundary, which is a common target for Ritual spells. One could predrawn the huge circle, or use another natural boundary to define the spell. Concentration spells would no longer be necessary and the chance of botch/failure would be lowered.
Well in 4th Ed, there were a few of them (Healers Ring for example) but in 5th edition, Ring/Circle effect are used to avoid the ritual/vis requirement for durations that exceed a moon cycle.
Ring/Circle are usefull to lower the level of spells that can make use of long durations.
Why make a Ring/Circle formulaic spell to help healing when you can create a individual or room formulaic spell that will last long enough to have the desired effect.
Circle spells are what we should be aiming for in 5th ed.
This spell would heal one light wound of all those whithin the circle. this spell should be more common then the one given in the book according to me.
This spell would keep one light wound healed untill the ring is broken or the individual exits the circle. The light wound cannot heal naturally untill the magical effect stops. Award one warping point.
Can this version exist in 5th Ed? If it can, what does it do?
I would tend toward sayin it cannot exist but if it did, it could heal all the light wounds of any indivitual that would step into the circle at the cost of only one warping point if you were not part of the casting of the spell.
Hmmm.. Very powerfull since it can be applied to the CrCo/Me stats boosting effects. Autumn/Winter convenants grogs would all have 5 in all their stats
And here I was assuming that concentration rolls were necessary because the magus was drawing a circle and casting at the same time, not because they were casting over long periods.
This interpretation makes failure/botch of big ring spells just as probable for ritual spells as for formulaics (rather than more or less).
