Rivers of London has been cited many times on these forums as inspirational reading for Ars Magica. Chaosium has just announced a licensed RPG for it. Looks like Magic Shoe is coming out after all! Except, of course, with Chaosium’s house system.
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Apparently the writer mentioned in his blog the the magic system is based on Ars Magica.
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For the curious, Chaosium’s RIVERS OF LONDON rpg has hit store shelves and Ars Magica players will recognize a lot. This game has the magical Forms, casting sigils, spell mastery, magnitudes, spell traces, Warping, and Twilight, usually with different Latin names. Some of the characters even have identifiable Hermetic Virtues.
It’s a shame we never got Magic Shoe. Because this game is that, set in 21st century London.
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I always like new creative material of any type getting out there. New Justin Bieber song, another season of the Bachelor; while I may not like it, if some people do then it is a good thing the material exists. Anyway, to the point.....
I also think it's important creatives get paid. Is it too similar? Was there any discussion with Atlas? Will we be seeing lawyers getting involved?
Oh very cool! I will have to look this up, as it could work really well for a "modern" Ars Magica game, and hopefully as interesting as Mage: The Ascension... Another big favorite of mine.
Since you've read the system enough to form an opinion, can you enumerate some facts that were lifted from Ars Magica? Do they have modern Tremere vampires or something like that?
The game is based on the Rivers of London novel series, the author of whom has acknowledged the magic system from Ars as an inspiration.
There’s no other connection, only the magic system, and neither the book nor the game uses any actual language from Ars Magica. You can’t copyright game mechanics and all the Ars terms have been renamed, so no, there’s no legally actionable options here, even if Atlas wanted to, which I can’t imagine they do.
An author loved Ars Magica and used a modified version of its magic system for his successful urban fantasy series, which then went full circle into another RPG. Everyone wins, especially the fans.
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This doesn't quite sound right.
If so, what was the point of the original D20 Open Gaming Licence?
Sorry, what I know of Copyright Law is that it is vast, complex, and occasionally bizarre. I recall thinking a few years back "Wait, does this mean copyright trumps human rights?", though I don't recall over what.
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I doubt that Ars Magica being an inspiration for the books on which an rpg is based gives any reason for copyright claims. The mechanics of the Rivers of London system are completely different, based on BRP, and the spellcasting mechanics specifically are not that of Ars either.
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I haven't read the system, nor am I a lawyer, which is why I put the question out there.
Even if after reading the system, I thought a lot was borrowed, I don't know enough copyright law to make a meaningful statement about the law.
And just to reinforce this, while the magic system in the books uses "formae", they're not Ars Magica Forms - Platonic chunks of the magic realm - but discrete magical concepts, which may be combined to produce more complex effects. There's an overview here:
Reading them (though I'm only halfway through the series), it felt a bit Ars Magica, but different. A good example of inspiration, but in no way a rip off.
(I haven't read the rpg, so have no opinion on the game mechanics).
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"merely asking questions" is a tool that some radio hosts use to spread scholastic rumors through insinuation. This is how they skirt diffamation laws and inflame their public.
I know it wasn't your goal and you may have been subconsciouly influenced by that trick, but I believe it has no place in polite conversation.
It's pretty well established you can't sue people for copying rules. You can sue for trademark infringement. Look really carefully at what the copyright says at the beginning of the book.
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Rule mechanics can't be copyrighted, but the actual description of rules certainly can.
So straight out copying the text from a rulebook of a game is not allowed, but using the same mechanics while making sure the text is different is (usually) allowed.
It is also possible to patent certain rule mechanics. Something rarely done, but there exist a few cases of it. (Wizard's of the Coast getting a patent on the "tap" mechanic in Magic: the Gathering is probably the most infamous.)
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Hard pass. Love Rivers, hate Chaosium 
I met Ben Aaronovitch at Ganes Expo back in the summer and we talked about Ars Magica, and BRP, and his failure to respond when I invited him to Grand Tribunal a few years back. Nice chap, Lynn Hardy deals with the Rivers line for Chaosium and definitely no transgression of rights. Its as close to Ars now as say Harry Potter is.
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A bit off topic but I saw a Chaosium interview recently in which the fellow being interviewed casually threw out that it was "easy" to port the Ars Magica magic system into BRP (???). If I knew how on earth to go about that I'd be playing Rivers of London tomorrow, only with Hermetic magic.
I was a little disappointed by how "traditional" the Rivers magic system is (essentially spell list + mana points), given that the novels have a much more free form system.
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Over on the BRPC forum, one of the users has a system he calls "The Second Way" which is (I think) also very ArM-inspired. It might be worth grabbing the doc and taking a look...?
FWIW, the RoL RPG is (aiui) particularly aimed at new RPG players. Generally speaking, newbies tend to have more problems with a purely-freeform magic system, and find it easier to engage with concrete mechanics.
I think I recall reading that they (Ben A & the Chaosium crew) shelved a more free-form system, possibly to be published in a future expansion (if the line really takes off to be a commercial success).
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@The_Fixer
Without getting into any cross-forum drama, or anything... is your issue with Chaosium specifically the new owners, or left over from the older management, or just so broad that it's "all Chaosium, period"?
Thanks for clarifying. I will certainly not regret my purchase of RoL if they release a freeform magic expansion! And I will check out the Second Way.
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