RoP:D Meditation, Holy Music & Warping questions

  1. For Holy Music I'm right now not sure how this ability activate a miraculous effect as even the 2 description at RoP:D 93 are say different things about the rolls and don't even mention a thing about the time you need and if the rolls are single or stress die.

  2. I suspect Holy Music also gain the effect on Warping that Meditation have but I'm not sure of this

  3. How is the effect on meditation on warping interacting with the influence on warping gained from Enigmatic Wisdom?

  4. I suspect for a hermtic magus with both Holy Magic & True Faith Divine Warping trump of normal Warping but what effect do this have on Twilight?

  5. In case Holy music is to problematic together with The Enigma the Zoroastrians are my alternative Holy Society instead of the Cantores but for this I need good source in English or German about this religion. Anyone have a good online document on this religion and its practices & traditions around 1100-1250 for me? (I look trough the English wikipedia right now but that is not nearly enough info)

For ArM5 there is TC&tC p.81ff Mythic Zoroastrianism. Heed its p.82 box Historical Accuracy there - but for a game the chapter is very useful.

To start into the analysis of Zoroastrianism for real, perhaps continue with ... 557/744081 (the article is for purchase).


Thanks One Shot I actual didn't look into Tc&Tc about this so far :slight_smile: (its one of the books I own but didn't get around to read :blush: ). Its actual a bit better then accurate historical sources as for the game many times there must be adjustments from the real history.

Holy Music - it's supposed to work like meditation, but using different rolls. So let's look at meditation from RoP:D p37 and try working through an example.
Meditation takes an hour, and you must make a stamina roll every ten minutes against an ease factor of 6. When the ritual is complete, if you are still conscious, you add Int+Meditation to your effect total. You may subtract your meditation from your roll to avoid Divine Ascent.

The formula on p46 for Miraculous Effects gives Effect total - simple die + Characteristic + Method + Power + Aura bonus.

The rules for Holy Music on p93 say "You must perform a song using your Presence + Music, and then use your Perception to interpret the feelings you experience". This sounds like one of the bits of meditation must be replaced by Presence + Music, and one using Per. If we follow the rolls in order, I suspect you roll Presence + Music difficulty 6 every 10 minutes for an hour, and if the ritual is complete you add your Perception + Meditation to your effect total.

The Cantores get Holy Music and Blessing - looking at Blessing, you can use some effects with meditation, so let's say you try to sing a hymn to give someone else a point of confidence - transfer a point of confidence from you to the target (base 15, +2 voice for total 25). You would roll a simple die, add Characteristic (I think Presence, but the lack of clarity in the Holy Music description means this could be Perception) + Holy Music + Blessing + aura bonus + add your bonus from your Holy Music (Per + Holy Music).... wait, does that mean you add Holy Music in twice? The problem is meditation is the most vaguely-worded of the three Methods, so Holy Music then adapting this further makes the rules very unclear.

The rolls for your ritual will be a stress die, as the meditation rules mention botches disturbing the ritual, but the actual effect roll only gains a simple die (as unless you have Invocation, you can't roll a stress die for Miraculous Effects - see p37)

sigh what a mess.
Adauli's other points -
2) Holy Music will have the same effect on avoiding Divine Ascent that Meditation gets. It specifically mentions this as opposed to any other form of warping effect, so doesn't affect Twilight/Vituperation/Faerie Calling etc.
3) Enigmatic wisdom always adds to your roll to avoid Twilight, so any other bonus or penalty is added to this.
4) p63 in the final paragraph under "The Divine Ascent" says "Characters who possess both Hermetic arts (or hedge magic) and Miraculous Abilities (such as Purity or Holy Magic) suffer only one form of unique Warping in their lifetime, which is decided in negotiation between storyguide and player as to what form is most appropriate" - so the canonical answer is "it's up to your troupe".

Overall, seeing as Enigmatic Wisdom is supposed to drive you into twilight more, and meditation means you may reduce your roll to avoid divine ascent, I suspect you can stack the two and pretty much guarantee a Divine Ascent event if that's the warping you suffer from. If you suffer from Twilight, I think only Enigmatic Wisdom applies.
It's worth checking with your troupe if they think Enigmatic Wisdom applies to warping events other than Twilight - I think the Criamon as written were meant to focus on the Magic Realm, so mixing them with Divine/Infernal/Faerie magics can create unusual mixes that make rules hard to apply.

Thanks for your help with the warping and try to help with the Holy Music mess.

If I direct translate Holy Music as it is written under Abilities into Meditation I think it should look like this

Presence + Music (Singing) vs an ease factor based on the circumstances every 10 Minutes for 1h and then Presence as characteristics for the Miraculous Effects roll.
You lose 1 Fatigue level each time you fail a Music roll and a botch end the ritual. Also a Concentration roll to keep your focus is necessary if you get distracted.
Because the description under Abilities is more exact I think Presence mentioned there is the characteristics for the Miraculous Effects roll instead of the Perception mentioned under Virtues.
I also suspect if there wasn't a failed Music roll the Miraculous Effects roll is single die and if there was a failed roll before its a stress die.

The Cantores tradition has intervention as a power to use with their holy music. If you look at the Meditation+ Intervention guidelines on page 52 they are by and large about supernatural perception.

My impression is that the notes on using perception with holy music in the skill description were intended to refer to getting a perception roll to interpret the meaning of the results that the character would get from the use of divine magic. (I'm not at all sure I like it but that's my impression from looking at the book.)

They also have Blessing and then how do it work there? If at all the perception is meant for the Miraculous Effects roll but I think its best to forget about what is written under virtues and just go with what is written under abilities because the text written under abilities can pressed into the schema how Meditation works. (Usually in this book the text under virtues just give a short overview while under ability say how it works)