Saga Decision: What are the defining traits of each Tribunal

Games Discussion Ars Magica
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Well, I think there is a more salient metagame reason: Early Ars Magica writers were more familiar with the British Isles, and wanted to predominantly play in these tribunals... Remember in the late 80s, early 90s getting access to good quality history books for other areas of europe other than France was substantially harder, and research in general much more difficult.

Therefore there are 3 tribunals. I also think there was a strong element of drawing board design of the Tribunals by early Ars Magica writers.

In game, we can make an argument that the Isles are simply more Magical in nature and can support a larger Hermetic population than similar areas of land on the Continent.

Another point is that the definition of a tribunal is at least 12 magi from at least 4 covenants. At earlier points in the Order's history, some magi just didnt want to stay in the same tribunal.

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Of course. I thought we were past that observation, and now looking for the narrative to make the 35-year old drawing board design make sense.

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Not everyone knows the history of the game, hence my bringing it up.

That said, another in game consideration is travel. In Canon Ars Magica, there are mentions of travel difficulties in many of the books for magi. Boat travel was not reliable or terribly safe in the early medieval period.

Edit: back to @raccoonmask 's original point

I also say Loch Leagan would have a strong culture of fueding similar to Hibernia.

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It does by 3½ed canon, doesn't it?

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Hmm. So, we know when the Britannian Tribunal formed, and when the Hibernian Tribunal did. Do we know when the Britannian Tribunal split into the Stonehenge and Loch Leagan tribunals?

Possibly relevant things I can find:

GotF pg 16
The Britannian (later divided into Loch Leglean, Stonehenge, and Hibernia), Roman, Iberian, and Theban Tribunals were founded at the same time.

GotF pg 83
Fengheld was founded in 1039 by veteran members of Houses Flambeau and Tremere returning from the Schism War in Stonehenge and Normandy.

GotF pg 141
1039 Rhine Tribunal of 1178 AA: The covenant of Fengheld is founded in the Harz Mountains, with the approval of the Tribunal, by veteran Tremere and Flambeau magi returning from the end of the Schism War in Britannia.

HoH: TL pg 83
There is a story in the Hibernian Tribunal that tells how a Flambeau wizard in the tenth century
had a grudge against a Redcap for some reason. Perhaps his rancor was justified, but he shocked the House by declaring Wizard’s War against his enemy. The Redcap fled to Stonehenge to hide from him, where he would have remained had the magus not tracked him down.

Heirs to Merlin and Lion of the North aren't very helpful - in particular, Heirs to Merlin says Stonehenge has been its own separate tribunal since 817 (pg 12), which has clearly been superseded by 5e canon.

Does anyone know anything which pins it down more definitely than that? It's presumably got to have been formalised at a Grand Tribunal, which means 898, 931, 964, 997 or 1030. Given the Redcap incident, 1030 (i.e. right after the Schism War) seems out, and 997 also seems unlikely both because it doesn't leave much time for the Redcap incident and because it is right in the run-up to the Schism War when magi probably had other priorities.

The Hibernian split is described in terms of Hibernia splitting away from the Brittanian tribunal rather than the whole tribunal splitting, so it probably continued to exist for a period after that.

964 is 3 years after the start of the Corruption of Tytalus.

Overall I'm inclined to go for 931 as the most likely relevant date - it implies the splitting off of Hibernia triggered a further splintering of magi going "actually, we'd quite like our own tribunal" next Grand Tribunal, and fits best with the established history of Stonehenge and Loch Leagan having been around for a while. It does leave open the question of "why the further split", though.

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I always assumed the three tribunals formed at the same time. Nothing else makes sense until we make the narrative which answers «why the further split».

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I’m late to this question, but I really like it, so I am crashing.

In ArM5 authors and editors have worked very hard to give each Tribunal distinctive character so that, in many senses, there’s many different official ways to play Ars Magica. I admire this very much, even if some of those official ways don’t interest me much. But I have run sagas in many tribunals, and here’s my two cents:

Rhine: This is all about guild politics and the gerontocracy of older magi stifling the young. Of course there’s wonderful local folklore to interact with, but that’s true of every tribunal. It’s the (usually) non-violent intrigue and Hermetic politics that distinguished the Rhine.

Theban: This is the place for PCs who want to cooperate with one another and the Order at large. Conflict between covenants and magi is discouraged, but sagas need conflict, so the PCs spend most of their time pursuing their own shared interests or combatting non-magi antagonists like the Venetians or monsters from Greek mythology.

Normandy: One of two ArM5 books obsessed with violent but usually non-lethal conflict between covenants and magi, Normandy is distinguished by its emphasis on feudal culture. So when you fight other magi, it’s usually in a tournament, or you’re on a raid and are limited to certamen.

Hibernia: The other tribunal obsessed with violent but usually non-lethal conflict between covenants and magi. Hibernia is distinguished a Peripheral Code with violent customs (Macgnimartha, Wizard’s War never expires, defending your covenant against repeated assault by other magi). There’s a reform effort that places Hibernia in tension with the rest of the Order, but it’s futile unless the PCs want to join it (but if you want to make Hibernia more like the rest of the order, why play in Hibernia in the first place?).

Transylvania: Yes, it’s all about Tremere, but more importantly, it’s ArM5 Tremere with their “the right thing for the wrong reasons” theme. This tribunal is distinguished by the fact that it’s incredibly well organized and magi can operate in the open, so it’s as close to a magi-run nation state as you can get without the PCs founding their own such state. Horror themes are also strong enough that they get a whole chapter of the book.

Provence: This is specifically designed to be welcoming to new players. It’s the least different from the core rulebook, it’s easy to form a new covenant, and there are large powerful covenants the PCs can join by simply visiting and never leaving. It’s got supervillain-level threats and a cool dungeon to explore. If your players are new to Ars, it’s perfect.

All of the other tribunals are from before ArM5, and that brings a lot of problems. Stonehenge is supposed to be focused on House Tremere as the villains, but the revision of Tremere in ArM5 means Blackthorne no longer makes sense as written. However, there’s one great reason to use Stonehenge anyway, rewriting it as necessary: all the research material is in English. If English is your native language, and the first language of most of your players, being able to read primary sources and most of the research materials about the region where your game is set is a tremendous advantage. Research has come a long way since the 1980s when this game was created, but language is still a barrier, and if you like doing it, and English is your first language, Stonehenge is very, very compelling.

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The easy answer here is Irish Mythology and faerie stories but, to be fair, the faerie stories side of that have mostly been exported to the rest of Mythic Europe already.

One saga I'm in currently is in Hibernia and after some initial stories the annual Macgnimartha raids, near constant Wiz War, and a bunch of other pieces that make Hibernia special have just felt unplayable as written in Contested Isles.

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It's certainly not impossible that they did all form at the same time (I don't think we have anything definite either way). It just doesn't seem quite consistent with the phrasing that:

tCI pg 12
33 years later, following the Tytalus example of Tribunal secession, the Irish magi left the Britannian Tribunal.

Reasons for a further split...hmmm...The Lion of the North (pg 33) implies that the Loch Leagan tribunal today is actually surprisingly well populated ("In number of magi, the Loch Leglean Tribunal is the largest tribunal in the Order of Hermes"), so if we hold that still to be true in 5e that could partially explain it. LotN also mentions three predominently Diedne covenants being destroyed in the Schism War, so that could mean it didn't use to have its quorum problem (although I don't think the three current covenants were founded then, so who knows...) I think you ideally want something else too, though.

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So as authors, our remit was to have Provencal be "the Vanilla" tribunal ie no really weird local variations on Hermetic law or overwhelming hedge traditions or major cults (other than the traditional Mercurian cult which is central to the Order).

The main imposed politics is Andrew G in HoH:S set the Domus Magnus Castra Solis and its chivalrous Flambeau in Provence not unreasonably, so we had to include that and reconcile that with some of the original Spanish Flambeau concepts and the older Mercuiran Doiss... ahem, "Aedes Mercuriae" covenant which creates political tension across the tribunal. Given the importance of the actual upcoming Tribunal we spent a bit of time detailing that, but if your saga doesn't involve a lot of mundane politics you can skip that or retcon it.

It's meant to be the tribunal you can start with just the corebook in an area that isn't dominated by a particular house of culture, and the Troupe can setup a new covenant without necessarily needing to "fit" a particular variant culture like Thebes / Transylvania / Normandy etc but can also readily join a larger Summer/Autumn covenant or base themselves out of one - yes I'm looking at you the Coenobium as that's what I designed it for LOL...

Sure, maybe the Flambeau section from HoH:S would be helpful if Castra Solis is a big part of it and the TMRE for the extended Mercurian cult information / Neo Mercurians but it's designed so it's not essential to have either of these groups play a large part. Also, there are some flavourful hedge traditions that can be fleshed out with HMRE, but they aren't on the level of say Hibernia, and you can run the sorginak or the masques as minor NPCs without a huge issue.

I think we arguably achieved that, with plenty of hooks into as you say mystery (Val Negra, the Knights of the Green Stone, and some others) and room for traditional Hermetic shenanigans without a whole lot of localised variant traditions to take into account...

The Coenobium is designed to allow you to "just play", potentially being part of a larger covenant and then having the sponsorship to go it alone down the track - similar to more conventional RPG style play where the characters work for a greater power initially..

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Yeah, I'm actually decided on Procencal for the game I'm running next year. It's a bunch of new players.

I like the fact politics are a bit chaotic and non-oppressive. I like the fact there's more ruins than covenants. I like the fact there's a strong Diedne heritage in the land. I like how relatively contained the space is.

Now I just have to decide where I want to plunk down the covenant. Since I have new players[but RPG experienced], I am planning to hand them all pregen +15 or +30 characters and running a one-shot of something threatening enough all the magi get involved. Then make their real characters to inhabit the covenant aftewards.

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Biased pinion here as I wrote Arelat (and the Coenobium and all the ruined sites of the multi-site covenant of Portus Cottiae destroyed by the first interaction of Fraxinetum)...

Start them in Arelat, at one of the ruined sites or even just have them assemble in Arles or Avignon at the bequest of the Consuls of the Coenobium and run them on a "session zero" mission to see what develops. Of all the neighboring covenants, the Coenobium is the most likely to support newcomers.

You can then get the to interact with the other areas / factions in due course depending on their interests (Mercurian politics, Flambeau rivalries, the Crusade, the Fallen Star, expedition to Val Negra etc).

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