I've decided to go Sahir.
Thing is, there's some question about whether or not I can find Jinn in most of Europe.

Now, since Jinn are just a form of Genii Loci, I figure I should be able to summon any of those.

If not, then how is it that Sahir could have been all over Europe for 300 years, hiding out from the Flambeau?

Or is it that you can find Arabic Jinn anywhere?

If a European dragon is so all-powerful, how come they don't hang out in the Orient? And vice versa?

It's magic - doesn't need what mortals would consider a "rational" explanation. If you think one would make a good story, then it appear, it doesn't necessarily need a reason or explanation. Maybe an Arabic hedgemage traveled in that locale recently, or long, long ago.

I could come up with a half-dozen creative explanations for why they are not common in Europe, but it's not my Saga. :wink:

Which doesn't directly answer my question.

Are there or aren't there Jinn in any area?
Can I or can't I summon non-Jinn Genii Loci if not?

According to Ars Magica Basic.
If the answer to both these is 'no,' why did Sahir ever want to go away from the Iberian Peninsula for 300 years?

I think that is supposed to be the Sahirs in Iberia are Hermetc, seperated from their hedge wizard cousins for the three hundred years since their induction.

I too really dig the Sahirs. I wouldn't say that a Jinn is nessecarilly bound to a place. Perhaps its bound to a person or better yet an artefact (say, a Lamp or a Ring). Yeah! I would make that a Major Sory Flaw, your Jin is bound to a movable object that you can loose instead of a place. Naw, make it minor. You can always get another if you loose it (a story), and it comes with a free Jinn.

I do have some problems with trying to figure out the Iberian Sahir backstory. Mainly the 300 year separation. I kinda figure the originals were Umayyad Sahirs, but those allied with the Almorvides and later the Almohades would not be Hermetic at first.

Still, any individual Sahir may just up and leave Iberia and head for parts more peaceful. If you want to incorporate one or more into a saga, then eithier Jinn should be mobile (unbound or bound to movible bbjects), or I would go with your own theory that Sahir powers affect all Genii Loci.

I will present the Bound option. Maybe a special Bargain Modifier that lets you shove them into a bottle/ring/whatever.

I think I'll try and argue for the 'Any Genus Loci.'

Hey, here's a thought: A virtue similar to Spell Binding, but it permits you to force services out of a spirit rather than just use them to sustain a spell.
Idea 1: The object/area is their new residence, and as such makes them a Genus Loci. Using it provides an Arcane Connection (similar to being at a Jinn's home.)
Idea 2: The object can be 'activated' a certain number of times to force the spirit to do a service each time.
Idea 3: No spell casting is needed to summon the spirit, and Bargaining can commence immediately (though what about Vis and Summoning Strength bonuses?)Also, one of my comrades says he remembers a spell that would do exactly what I'm looking for, but he can't recall it.

IIRC Jinn are pretty much confined to Muslim (or recently Muslim lands in the case of Iberia) and Faerie Jinn are related but distinct from European Faeries / Fey and similarly not necessarily bound to place. The European counterparts to Magical Jinn are the genii loci of natural places etc and differ to their Faerie counterparts. Infernal Jinn equate to European demons as there are not really demons as such in Islamic folklore although I'd defer to Niall on a more complete explanation of this point.

You could hypothesise that Jinn spread with the spread of Islam, converting and/or becoming susceptible to the power of the Sahir. In this way the ancient genii loci of Africa, the Deii Mauri, would have evolved to become Jinn. It is implied that it is much, much harder for Sahir to affect spirits that are not Jinn per se, perhaps even a Mystery etc.

I like to think of Magical Jinn as "heathen" genii loci spirits who have not made the choice to follow Islam (or another monotheistic religion of the book), Faerie Jinn as "pious" spirits that have chosen to abide by a monotheistic religion (the most recent manifestation in 1220 is Islam) and "corrupt" Jinn who have become Infernally tainted. Only the first category are truly bound to a locale and aloof of human society.

I have submitted an article on free-roaming Faerie Jinn as potential Companions and adversaries to Sub Rosa #2. I am currently completing a draft of ArM5 non-Hermetic sahir drawing heavily on the rules presented in HoH:Societas and TMRE to submit to Sub Rosa #3.

If you haven't already, I suggest you check out Niall's web-supplements to Blood & Sand on Sanctum Hermeticum Revisited:

for further ideas on Jinn and sahir.



al-salamu 'alaykum,

To pick up on Jarkman's point, Ars Magica is written adopting a viewpoint based in western mediaeval myth and folklore. As a result, the idea of an entity called a "demon" is firmly entrenched in the background. However, demons per se don't really exist in Islamic theology. True, Iblis (Satan) may be a fallen angel, but he may also be a jinni; the Qur'an isn't clear on this point. The word shaytan does get used in conversation, but it can be used as a name for Satan, for some other evil entity, or for a type of jinni. Thus, when you see demons mentioned in the game in the context of Islam, what you are seeing is the "game system" overlay that is being used to keep the mechanics uniform, wherever your saga is set.

With regard to the jinn, when I first introduced them in RoP: D I defined them as Faerie creatures (which seemed logical, as they are found in myth and legend, which seemed at the time to be the main defining characteristic of Faerie creatures in ArsM5). However, since then Infernal and Magical jinn have also been presented in the game. Thus we seem to have jinn who spring from at least three different realms, and it seems possible that Divine jinn could also exist.

As far as sahirs are concerned, I recently(ish) posted a rules set for sahirs in ArsM5: ... ahirs.html

I hope that this proves to be helpful.

Well, already started. Still, very interesting...
Something to consider for later, it's got a lot of the flavor I like.