Beyond inviting all involved, and in particular 'wolf and 'hound, to cool down, I would point out that, from my experience, an experienced crew can make a lot of difference when sailing. An inexperienced crew simply can't jump when you say jump; they cannot react to surprises in the same way; they cannot apply their strength in the best way - so they get fatigued much more easily (even "athletic" types); they are much more likely to make a crucial mistake, getting caught in a rope or being flung off board or slipping when they are at some crucial task or forgetting to secure something important.
You cant even see every single little detail onboard from anywhere, of course one person cant be expected to notice it all everywhere.
sigh
Ill say it simple, give me a ship and a veteran crew and i can literally sail in circles around the same ship, with myself in charge but with a noob crew. Thats reality, end of story.
An individual sailor wont change officers decisions unless its an emergency, but if officers have to lead the crew by the nose, its a really poorly run ship.
Or do you really claim that you if you´re in charge, you tell everyone exactly how much to pull this or how far to push that etc etc... Thats so ineffecient you almost might as well not have ANY crew.
Oh but im just naive, confused and ignorant you know. According to you that is. So now you are actually accusing me of something you did. Yes, extremely "intelligent debate".
And if an analogy is nothing but stupid and irrelevant, there´s not much "grasping" to do.
I reply to you as you to me so maybe you need to take a look at yourself first.
Why should i come up with a "counter example".
No i cant...
I think all are in agreement about this and it is why the Profession:Sailor covers a lot of general skills like ropework, sail mending, boat/ship terms and which rope to pull when. Perhaps when you get to Sailor 5 you could be a officer 
Hopefully Sailor 5 and Leadership unless you want a medieval Dilbert-like vessel 
An interesting house rule we have is that, whenever you coordinate others in an effort (lab work, C&G workshop activities, combat etc.) your leadership score is capped by the relevant ability, and so are the effective ability scores of those under your command. So if your Leadership is 9 but your Profession: Sailor ability is 2, your Leadership is treated as 2, and so is the Profession: Sailor ability of those following your orders.
Today, there are very few sailing ships that require dozens of crew, which in turn requires for the sort of hierarchy of command and allows the variation in skill we are talking about. More, due to availability, a captain has no need of untrained crew when so many with experience exist willingly. Also, whether due to liability or an increased social sensibility toward the welfare of others, "safety first" is a motto for many, especially in modern sailing situations, where in the 1200's... meh, not so much. Lastly, today there is an emphasis on "on the job training" and general education that did not exist back then - you went to sea cold ignorant, you learned by doing, and "lucky you" if you found a willing mentor.
So the only experience modern sailing can afford to this discussion is the dynamic of manpower vs. skill regarding sailing a boat - and the simple fact is that if one person knows what they're doing, they can talk others through the rest in all but the most demanding situations (storms, racing, etc.), and achieve close to maximum efficiency (especially if you consider the "max" for technology of the 1200's, which is certainly not the high-demand carbon-fiber 3-D technology racing sails and kelp-cutter blade-&-bulb keels of today.)
Absolutely - the question was not so much whether a ship could do fractionally better if the majority had some small understanding of the process, but that Profession (Sailing) is not needed by every individual to be a sailor on a ship, nor close to. Many records show that ships had painfully ignorant crews, and still made their voyages, even if to the annoyance of the officers. But in all but a sudden squall or breakage, there was rare need to "jump". Even then, those that didn't know followed (the orders of) those who did, and did what needed to be done. While skill is good and skill is fine, it was hardly a dealbreaker - if it was, no young man would ever have been able to go to sea and live their life as a sailor, and shang-hai'ing would never have been as popular.
I came up with a cool Companion Character for sailor & ship stories for ya 
”Fisty McFiesty”: (a nickname)
Characteristics: Int +1, Per +1, Com -3, Pre +1, Str +1, Sta +2, Dex +4, Quik +2
Size: -1
Age: 50 (29)
Decrepitude: 0 (3)
Warping: 0 (3)
Confidence: 1 (3)
Virtues: +1 Improved Characteristics, +1 Affinity with Brawl, +1 Arcane Lore, +1 Great Dexterity, +1 Luck, +1 Puissant Brawl, +1 Reserves of Strength, +1 Tough, +1 Unaging, +1 Warrior
Flaws: -3 Fury, -3 Lust, -1 Disfigured, -1 Incomprehensible, -1 Reckless, -1 Small Frame
Personality Traits: Angry +3, Reckless +3, Lusty +3
Reputations:
Combat:
Dodge: Init +2, Atk n/a, Def +15, Dmg n/a
Fistfight: Init +2, Atk +18, Def +16, Dmg +1
Knife: Init +2, Atk +18, Def +15, Dmg +3
Thrown Knife: Init +2, Atk +10, Def n/a, Dmg +3
Soak: +5
Fatigue: OK, 0, -1, -3, -5, ko
Wounds: -1 Lt (1-4), -3 Med (5-8), -5 Hvy (9-12), Incap (13-16), Dead (17+)
Abilities: Athletics 4 (climb), Awareness 2 (in a fight), Atlantic Area Lore 4 (coastlines), Bargain 3 (hard sell), Brawl* 11+2 (fist), Carouse 5 (heavy drinking), Charm 2 (wit), Craft: Knot Tying 2 (sailor knots), Etiquette 2 (seamen), Faerie Lore 3 (the sea), Folk Ken 2 (seamen), Guile 3 (big lies), Leadership 3 (intimidation), Magic Lore 3 (the sea), Mediterranean Area Lore 3 (islands), Portuguese 5 (sailors), Profession: Seaman 5 (sail), Stealth 2 (hide), Survival 2 (at sea), Swim 2 (distance), Thrown Weapon 4 (knife)
Equipment: knife, booze
Encumbrance: 0
Background: Fisty McFiesty is the bastard son of a Scottish sailor and a Portuguese prostitute. He started getting into fits when he was still a toddler, and he started drinking at age 5. He became a sailor at age 10, and has travelled both the Atlantic and Mediterranean. He has boxed and defeated sailors in a score of different ports, and he has bedded women in just as many. He has experience with the supernatural and lost magical islands. After such an encounter at age 29, he stopped aging. His face is all scared up from his many fights.
I am not sure I buy this argument of yours. When I made my statement, I was thinking about being a skipper of a 15m boat, with a "crew" of 6 tourists trying to learn sailing (so you do order them around telling to trim that sail etc.), or with a crew of even just 2 experienced folks. There's just no comparison between the two crews in terms of how many small (and sometimes not so small) problems arise. I would be really scared of sailing in bad weather with the inexperienced crew. And I do not think it's a "leadership" issue. It's just that a clueless person being ordered around will be slower and sloppier than an experienced one in virtually all ways of life.
"Close to maximum" is not maximum and "in all but the most demanding situations" is not always (see below for a more thorough discussion on this). And I would also contend that today's technology is not "high demand" - it makes handling a boat/ship easier than it was in ancient times. Have you tried steering with an oar rather than a rudder? I have, once, in an emergency and it's ... well, it's like driving, including steering and changing gears, with your feet alone.
The advantage of an experienced crew may be marginal in all but the most demanding situations, yes. But you do encounter those situations if you live your life on the sea, and over time it makes a difference. It's like driving drunk. Drive home moderately drunk and you are 90% likely to get home without a scratch on your car. Drive drunk every night, and chances are you'll get into a serious accident before a year passes.
Same thing with sailing. You certainly stand a good chance of making a month-long long voyage with an unexperienced crew without encountering any major problems. But over many years? Consider this. Suppose an experienced crew has a 99.9% chance of surviving a moderately bad storm, and an inexperienced crew a 95% chance; other than that the two crews are identical. Suppose there are 5 such storms a year. Incidentally, I think these are fairly realistic numbers. The second crew has identical performance to the first one in all but a handful of circumstances, and even in those the performance differential is rather small (there's 95% probability that the outcome will be the same). Yet it's easy to see that the experienced crew has more than 90% chance of surviving 20 years at sea, the inexperienced one less than 1%.
Oh that one´s actually pretty darn good.
Let me suggest calling him "McFeisty" instead though, otherwise im just thinking he´s also Mexican somehow (McFiesta...-ish). :mrgreen:
I would suggest its scarred up more likely, his personality doesnt jive well with a scared face.
Fix those typo´s and then post him in the character design thread.
I would simply refuse to sail in bad weather without at least a halfdecent crew.
Totally. People can be as willing and energetic as the best, but if they dont know enough, they´re more in the way than they´re helpful.
If anything, probably too optimistic on how small the difference is.
Ships took on "noobs" similar to how craftsmen took on apprentices, and only a severely stupid or deranged captain or crew didnt make sure to give them basic training or more.
Yes of course, because storms dont happen, shallows doesnt exist, sails never tear up, leaks doesnt happen...
And explaining to someone exactly how hard to tighten up this or that sail is so perfectly simple... 
If a large portion of the crew lacks it, then you have a ship with serious problems.
Oh yes. In the 17th century and onwards. With considerably bigger ships overall, larger crews, and not seldomly with still bigger crews due to the need for extra preparedness against pirates among other things. Crews more specialised on ships specifically changed for more specialisation.
But ships with larger amounts of poorer sailors managed because due to the larger crews overall, they still had ALOT of skilled sailors around. And even marines and more still so gunners were often given the basics of "sailor" training.
Those who did go to sea without skills, were trained before they were allowed to do anything the slightest vital.
Yeah, maybe you should take a VERY good look at WHEN this was popular? Once again you´re stooging around in the times of ships of the line, or at least halfway there. And large warships. How common do you think it was shanghaiing crew for a sloop or brig? A ship of the line could easily have a hundred or even three of poor sailors or even non-sailors, because it still had twice as many that could do the job properly.
I'm of the opinion that a single Profession: Sailor skill should cover the essentials. I agree that many sailors were very skilled, I'm simply of the camp that AM5 "skills" are sufficiently broad. When you can learn all of the liberal arts under a single ability, I don't think you should have to spend points just to learn something like knot tieing.
Some will certainly have speciality skills like Navigation or Blacksmithing, and a separate skill should be required to build ships, but the Sailor skill should include everything needed to keep a ship running.
Good news, sodales!
Click the miscreant's name!
Click Add Foe!
Agreed, but i think you missed what "ropeworking" as an additional profession would mean. Its not about making a knot or three extra, its being able to make and repair ropes, splice 2 ropes together without creating a weak point, or taking apart one rope to make 3 others from it each of different length and width than the source rope, etc etc.
Regular knots and the basic stuff should off course be more or less part of Prof:Sailor.
Additional professions:
Ropeworker
Sailmaker
Carpenter
Blacksmith
And one im not sure of the proper name for, one dealing with treating wood surfaces, with varnish, tar, pitch, resin, paint or whatever else is the common form used locally to make the wood last longer. Caulking maybe?
Shipbuilder (includes just about all the above to some degree as applied to ships)
Signalist (rare outside of warships as this should certainly also be part of Sailor to a small degree, but being able to do it and being able to do it fast and flawlessly and knowing hundreds instead of a halfdozen or two signals makes a difference when its needed)
Navigator(although this could be split into different ones based on HOW, or you can simply specify the means, landmarks, stars, sun, ocean features etc)
Area Lore
( and of course the fairly obvious Athletics )
Weather prediction ( a very nice skill to have, but not a very common one at high Scores )
It's not so much an opinion as the game system - that's how it's designed, inarguably.
My position is that not all men who work on a ship need that skill to perform their assigned duties, even to do them well, because those lowest-end duties are no more skilled than pulling a rope, turning a crank or lifting a heavy load (if at times also while climbing on a high rope ladder).
The problem arises in situations like this - a crewman should know how to tie knots, but doesn't need to know how to sail - so... where does that leave us? But I don't believe that Profession:Sailor should make a character better at balancing or climbing, even if it's an essential part of the job description.
I've been there - the "small problems", I'm guessing, because a novice was given "control" of a sheet or winch - "turn this, all by yourself, while I watch and talk you through it" - crucial for teaching, but the equivalent would never happen in an old-fashioned ship, giving someone ignorant control of a line.
Crew were needed for manpower. One "lead" would call the trim, and the rest were just there for the muscle. If those 6 tourists were all given one line and told "pull until I say stop" - I doubt many problems would be seen, large or small.
Think of a turn-of-the-century America's Cup boat, as recently as the early 1900's - like a J-class or something. You'd have a few true sailors - the skipper, trimmers and tactician, some few other positions - but the majority was there to pull the sheets in - maybe 8-15 strong backs all laying on hands to haul that jib sheet. The bigger the sails, the more men you need to hoist and trim them - but only one ever need to know anything more than to pull or ease when told. The rest merely need jump when someone says jump - not why.
(It still happens today - modern America's Cup crews include brutally strong professional athletes who know nothing about sailing, and merely "turn the winch" as hard and fast as they can when told to. Not their job to know when to start or stop - they are merely there to provide the horsepower for the ones who do know what to do with the sails. Only more so back in the day.)
I found this vid - it shows a J-Class boat dropping a big sail (spinnaker). youtube.com/watch?v=JBwKP8VjngA
At the beginning, there are 4 crew on the foredeck - how many know how to "sail", how many just know their immediate non-sailing job (pull, lift, hold), and how many are just following orders and providing manpower, a strong back where it's needed? About 1:45 in, a guy with a black vest & sunglasses goes forward - he's calling orders, and the only one who needs to "know". Another half-dozen show up to help - these "crew" know to stay upwind of sails - do they know anything more? Do they need to?
By my count, of the 10 on the foredeck, only 1 is demonstrating any real understanding/knowledge of the maneuver, and the rest are following. (Even the one who climbed up the foreguy and tripped the tack - does he know "sailing", or just his special monkey-job. And the others?... They may or may not, but they don't need to.)
This is a dangerous maneuver - lots of big forces, lots of opportunities for boat or crew breakage. But everyone just "pulls" or "lifts" as they're told, when they're told, what they're told - told by only 1 or 2 others, and told repeatedly and constantly, and it all works out perfectly. As far as I can tell, those 2 make all the important calls and do all the important tasks - exactly like my model of how it should work.
(Tried to find a vid or photo of an old-school J tacking, showing the hands hauling away - that would be even more eloquent, I believe.)
I was not clear - by "high demand" I was referring to getting the "maximum" out of a boat - very easy to make a tiny mistake and lose 15% of your speed on some of the top-end boats (not just the custom sleds, but even one-design, such as Farr 40's or ID 48's, or a Melgiss, or some of the high-end J's*). But with old-time low-performance boats, square-rigged, blunt bows and no speed-related instruments, the difference between "close to max" and "max" might only be less than .1 knots, and thus imperceptible. I was not referring to the ease of trim, but the perceived result.
(* If these are not known in Europe, insert any high-end class. Finicky, twitchy, demanding - get it perfect or go very slow.)
I've sailed medium distances without a rudder (15 miles, open sea, to the closest harbor), using only the sails to maneuver - and the crew was not experienced, but they learned quickly when they put their mind to it!
But they didn't understand why it worked, or need to know - and none could have (easily) duplicated it the next week on their own, nor even explain what they did later that night as they were telling the story. It was purely mechanistic - do X and Y happens, when the other person says A you do B. This is not enough to be "Profession: Sailing", but it was ample to get the job done under minimal supervision.
The sea is certainly a dangerous place and a dangerous life, and sailors died - a lot. Inexperienced probably died more - but you could always shanghai someone to replace that pair of hands, because that's all the boat needs once you have your experienced core.
Sorry - have to stop you there - don't accept your premise. It works for a game, but that's not how RL worked.
The only critical "in/experience" is in the command, the ones who decide what gets done and when. They are the ones that make key decision (or errours) in a storm. The common crew is mere manpower - they are what has been replaced by $5000 winches and lightweight synthetic sail material - you don't need 10 men to hoist a sail any more, but when you did they didn't need to know anything more than "Pull!" And if an idiot can lay hands on and "pull" as hard and fast as a veteran salt, what's the diff? The winch doesn't know how to sail, why should the men it replaced have needed to know?
An individual inexperienced crewman has less chance to survive a storm, but they are never (intentionally) given an opportunity to personally provide a "fail" condition for the boat as a whole. If they are, if a landlubber has to take the helm or decide on their own what to do, things are already bad. (Yes, it's obvious that it would be a better ship if 100% of the crew were experienced in 100% of all possible skills and tasks - but as in the modern military, it's just not seen as worth the effort, and even less back in the 13th century.)
You take an experienced command structure with experienced crew, and compare that to the same with inexperienced. The only problem arises if they can't climb as well, or haul as hard and together, or untie a knot as fast - and that really isn't "Profession: Sailor", unless we're drawing a distinction between that and "Profession: Sailing".
Thanks! "Foe" is a bit melodramatic, but...
I think DW is right in the fact that a merchant ships crew would be more experienced as they are sailors who want to be there. This was true throughout the ages. Only in war times when crews were drafted/pressed into service would you have inexperienced crews and those would be on warships.
I disagree about the need for a Sailmaker on board the ships in the ArM time frame. It makes sense when you have 20 different types of sails on a single ship. Most boats/ships have one or two sails in this period. Sails are pre-made and carried on the ship. Anyone with Sailor skill can patch a sail.
Ropeworker is another one that is confusing. Anyone can splice rope. And yes I've done all of what you give for an example in just one summer of work. That would be part of the Sailor skill.
Not someone dedicated to that alone no i certainly agree. But one or two of the sailors onboard also having a score somewhere between 1 and 4 perhaps. The majority of sailing ships will at least always have someone who can do the job to some degree. Medieval style sails are not that easy to keep from being damaged.
Possible exception being those used by the vikings and those retaining similar sails later as well, but those sails instead has the downside of being considerably heavier than whats common elsewhere.
Hmm, if you´re west or north, having one or two up is likely correct, but dont forget that few sailed without a spare, and whichever is currently the spare is also getting patched up(which is why few ships will move around without at least someone that can do this job properly). If you go down south(italian citystates for example) and east(eastern med), two sails are common(lateen-rigged on two masts) and up to four isnt unknown.
Including making ropes and repairing badly damaged ropes? Then thats rather impressive because most people would fail in most of the more "advanced" ropeworking tasks. While i totally agree that it should fall under Sailor skill, i also thinks it should be around as a separate thing, because the Sailor skill shouldnt function at same score regardless of the task.
My thinking is that a Sailor gets a virtual point in all those other skills for every 3-5 points in Sailor Score.
Easy tasks that goes under the complimentary skills can be done based on the full Sailor skill score, while more advanced tasks are relegated to the fractional score or someone with the specialist skill itself.
When I hear sailmaker I think of someone who must make fitted sails for a ship. Just not a skill that I could see in most crews in this time period but it would be good to have for that one time. I think Sailor covers mending sails that are torn.
And I'm for simplicity. Sailor allows you to normal sailing things of which rope work is one of them. How well they do it is based on the role. As I said, any sailor can splice rope but when you need it spliced in a storm you would get the best person to do it. When I think of the separate skills needed on a ship of this period like Carpenter and Navigator, I'm thinking of skills that are outside the general task of sailing the ship or that take special knowledge. Being a Carpenter is not remotely like being a sailor. I can't even think of a situation that a sailor would have to do any basic carpentry in the normal course of sailing the ship. That is why I move skills away from the profession of Sailor like Carpenter.
Sailing is sailing. Ships with bigger sails can use more dumb muscle, and warships tend to be bigger, that's all.
My previous response was far wordier and less focused than I had realized - I get like that, sorry, and if you didn't read it all I don't blame you. So allow me to repeat, more simply and directly -
Watch this vid: youtube.com/watch?v=JBwKP8VjngA
It's on a relatively modern boat, but the maneuver shows elements of timeless sailing - a group is changing sails, exactly the "do or die" maneuver that some claim requires intimate knowledge of sailing for all concerned, lest a warship be at a disadvantage.
Also, note that this is a timed maneuver, so they are under the clock, and trying to do this quickly. And the "officers" know exactly how long it will take, even with "volunteers" - no skill is required, or at least that is factored in accurately. If those were skilled, it probably wouldn't have changed much - not all orders would have been necessary to vocalize, but on a ship this size, that's not a bad thing anyway.
Only 1 person is "in charge" and demonstrates any broader knowledge of what's going on (wearing black vest & glasses, he enters at 1:45 or so, but you can hear him from the start). The others are all just following orders. Even the one guy who is climbing some rigging and releasing the sail, could just be more athletic and just filling a more demanding non-sailing task, on cue. 1 "sailor/officer" (who is in communication with the Captain, who's steering), and about a dozen ignorant but willing crew.
Now, if those crew do this often enough, they, too, will soon know "Profession: sailor" at some low level (or die trying). But they don't need to know anything about sailing to be helpful, or even critical to this maneuver. They just need to do what the few who are talking are telling them to do -
Here's the transcript, more or less, for those who might want it...
Commands:
"Go with jib up" (ie, "Pull that line") (and the new sail goes up, and the 4 we can see know only enough to not let the sail fall overboard - hardly a "Profession: Sailing" element.)
"(Climb that rigging and spike (release) when I tell you!)" (this is garbled - that's the gist, not the exact words)
"volunteers up forward to help" (and more people move forward - okay, this is not a working boat, so it's polite)
< ...Here the "officer" shows up, giving orders and taking charge... >
"you guys in the hole" (And 2 guys go down the hatch, preparing to pull the sail down - they know only this much)
"...3, 2, 1, Spike!" (and the old sail is released)
"Go, Go, Go, hard and fast as you can!" (and the climber is brought down to the deck)
"Pull down the foot, down the foot, down the foot!" (he's pointing at the bottom of the sail, the "foot") (and they all grab hold where they can, as he does)
"Don't lose it! Go, go, go! C'mon, C'mon! Faster, Faster! Pull where it's easy!"" (and they all go faster, and the sail comes down...)
"It's in the water" (and hands move to retrieve that part)
<...sail covers camera and mike...>
"We're not done yet, Get it down the hole" (and the sail is fed down below, where those other 2 crew are simply gathering it)
" you guys can go back, thank you very much" (And that's how they know when they are done)
(and then they clean up, etc, but it keeps working the same.)
If a problem arose, we all know who would have addressed it - the "officer". And the others would have followed his orders. (And it did, he did, and they did - when the sail started going in the water.)
At least 10 crew, and only 1 who demonstrates any "sailing", or has to. That's how it works - that's how it's always worked.
(I have no doubt some DO know more, but they don't need to, and they don't even have a chance to demonstrate it.)
I'd say specializations at least start to cover this. Bob may only have Sailor:2 but that Specialization: Ropeworker pushes it up to three, while Harry's Sailor:4 makes him better in general and his Specialization: Steering makes him the best man on board with the rudder.
Dunno about the climbing and balancing. I might let a sailor use his skill to climb a rope ladder on shore. I don't see it helping with scaling walls.
J - with "skills" being this grainy, a good SG is going to have to use their best judgement, and tell a good story. If it makes more sense and better action for a sailor to climb a rope ladder, then by all means just go with it.