I'd suggest two unless our vis sources are likely to increase dramatically any time soon.
thanks!
So, it's not Viola's, and it has no official ties to the covenant... around 40 vis, you say?... hmmm... 
(And we wonder why there are no "talking animals" left today.) 
Why kill the golden goose when you can use Rego Mentem?
Just taking that what the SG said at face value.
[ignoring the comment about killing the cats....]
I went back and checked the boosk, and figured out where I got 4, but let's go through this again....
I'm going to set an official target for vis income right now, so that I've got something to work off of. I'm going to figure the target can be achieved within the next few game years, provided the magi actively look for vis. I've posted my thoughts in Covenant Development, because that's where it really belongs. Once we make that decision, we can calculate the value of the cats' Personal Vis Sources on that basis.
Scott
Salutor, I just realized I still need a response from you on this post about vis allocation:
https://forum.atlas-games.com/t/campaigns-active/203/1
Since Gregorius and Viola are the only two PC members left, it's basically up to us.
Scott
Sorry - sounds reasonable.
I've made a change to Viola's and Constantine's logs for Summer 1227--I realized that Constantine was sitting on a pile of Ignem vis that he received on an adventure, and he's trading a couple of pawns of it to Viola for Imaginem vis (which is just as useful to him), so that she can enchant the regio temple with Magical Heating. I'll post updated character sheets for Viola, Constantine, and Theodoric tonight.
Viola
1226
Winter: Initiates Calliope into Potent Spontaneous Magic, then studies again from the Parma Magica summa (Study: +14=92 [5]).
Spring: Explores the faerie regio in the temple to Poseidon as a possible lab site. Spends the rest of the season investigating the regio, both to learn more about the curse and its effects, and to discover how to harvest the Perdo vis source in the upper level. Adv.: Faerie Lore, +5=56 (5)
Summer: Finishes setting up the lab, completing the work Constantine began in the Spring. Exp.: Magic Theory, +2=198 (8)
Autumn: Sits amidst the petrified men in her lab and studies Muto from Transformation (+20=80 [12]).
Correspondence with Calliope: Faerie Magic, +1=23 (2)
Corrrespondence with Salignus: Faerie Magic, +1=24 (2)
Corrrespondence with Theodolphus: Magic Theory, +1=199 (8)
Corrrespondence with Theoros: Magic Theory, +1=200 (8)
Vis Income: 1p Re from the covenant, 2p Mu from the faerie wine casks.
1227
Winter: Sits near various fountains within the covenant while studying Rego from Discipline and Restraint (+31=51 [9]). Tries repeatedly not to giggle at the title.
Spring: Has the covenfolk plant a garden under the open roof in her living quarters, and uses that location to study Creo from Portia’s Principia Fabricata (+20=39 [8]).
Summer: Enchants a stove with a CrIg (Int +4 + Magic Theory 9 + Inventive Genius 3 + Aura 5 + Lab General Quality 7 + Lab Items Spec. 4 + Cr 8 + Ig 5 + Shape Bonus 5 = 50) effect to maintain the temperature at a comfortable level (Level 2, +1 mag. Touch, +2 mag. Sun, +3 mag. Structure, +1 2 uses/day, +3 environmental trigger = 24), making her living quarters more comfortable and granting her lab Magical Heating (while also removing Defective Heating), at a cost of three pawns of Ignem vis, which she receives from Constantine in trade for three pawns of Imaginem vis; the Warping roll is a 4 (invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4482154/), meaning no Warping. Exp.: Magic Theory, +2=202 (8)Autumn: Journeys to Aegea covenant with Calliope, seeking information that would help her lift the curse in the regio. Adv.: Order of Hermes Lore, +5=10 (1); Faerie Lore, +2=58 (4).
Correspondence with Calliope: Faerie Lore, +1=59 (2)
Corrrespondence with Salignus: Faerie Lore, +1=60 (2)
Corrrespondence with Theodolphus: Magic Theory, +1=203 (8)
Corrrespondence with Theoros: Magic Theory, +1=204 (8)
Vis Income: 2p An from the covenant, 2p Mu from the faerie wine casks.
Constantine
1226
Winter: Flits about while Viola studies.
Spring: Accompanies Viola in exploring the temple regio, then begins setting up her lab there.
Summer: While Viola finishes setting up the lab, learns about magic from her (Train.: Magic Theory, +11=119 [6]).
Autumn: Flits about while Viola studies.
1227
Winter and Spring: Flits about while Viola studies.
Summer: Assists Viola in enchanting the lab, after trading her three pawns of Ignem vis for three pawns of his Imaginem.
Autumn: Accompanies Viola on her trip to Aegea.
Scott
Where are you getting that a stove is a +5 bonus from? It doesn't seem unreasonable, but I can't see it in the lists.
It's not in the lists, but I figured that was about right.
Scott
There's Hearth at +7 (main book)? Probably less portable than a stove, but a bigger bonus (largely irrelevant given your lab total), and canonical. Technically I think the defined shape and materials bonuses are meant to be the only ones that exist (despite the fact that more keep being defined) - otherwise Vulgar Alchemy is even more useless than it already is.
Ugh, I forgot about that idiotic accretion. I hate when new rules take away am already-existing ability--and this one in particular makes very little sense. I realize it's the only thing that makes Vulgar Alchemy worthwhile, but unless someone has some attachment to that Virtue, I suggest we ignore the rule. At any rate, it's hard to believe no one has ever used a stove bonus before.
Also, I forgot Viola spent a season investigating the hypocaust, so I'll need to change that.
Scott
Technically, there was never an ability to create new bonuses, it just didn't explicitly say you couldn't. I know what you mean, though. I wouldn't have a major objection to house-ruling that out, but see what other people think?
Include one max as a "discovery" in the same season or project where it is used. I hate the need to discover these darn things. If a magus spends time actually investigating them in lab then they should be able to determine the range of bonuses a form might grant.
That said I do think there is a limit needed on how high the bonus can be, but troupe call is fine
I realize it didn't say so explicitly, but I think everyone assumed the list was only a list of examples.
I agree that any new ones have to be balanced with old ones, but I don't see what we'd get by having a "discovery" created as part of a larger project--the net effect would be the same as simply allowing anything plausible to work. Do you think there would be some advantage to that that I'm missing?
Scott
Whee, here's take 4 (5?) on the advancement for Viola and Constantine, taking into account now Viola's investigation of the hypocaust in Spring 1226.
Viola
1226
Winter: Initiates Calliope into Potent Spontaneous Magic, then studies again from the Parma Magica summa (Study: +14=92 [5]).
Spring: Explores the faerie regio in the temple to Poseidon as a possible lab site. Spends the rest of the season investigating the hypocaust in Gregorius’ lab. Adv.: Faerie Lore, +5=56 (5)
Summer: Investigates the temple regio, both to learn more about the curse and its effects, and to discover how to harvest the Perdo vis source in the upper level. Exp.: Faerie Lore, +2=58 (5)
Autumn: Experiments to enchant a stove with a CrIg (Int +4 + Magic Theory 9 + Inventive Genius 6 + simple die 9 [invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4483088/] + Aura 5 + Lab General Quality 7 + Lab Items Spec. 4 + Cr 5 + Ig 5 + Shape Bonus 5 = 59) effect to maintain the temperature at a comfortable level (Level 2, +1 mag. Touch, +2 mag. Sun, +3 mag. Structure, +1 2 uses/day, +3 environmental trigger = 24), making her living quarters more comfortable and granting her lab Magical Heating (while also removing Defective Heating), at a cost of three pawns of Ignem vis, which she receives from Constantine in trade for three pawns of Imaginem vis. The Warping roll is a 4 (invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4483089/) . Exp.: Magic Theory, +2=198 (8)
Correspondence with Calliope: Faerie Magic, +1=23 (2)
Corrrespondence with Salignus: Faerie Magic, +1=24 (2)
Corrrespondence with Theodolphus: Magic Theory, +1=199 (8)
Corrrespondence with Theoros: Magic Theory, +1=200 (8)
Vis Income: 1p Re from the covenant, 2p Mu from the faerie wine casks.
1227
Autumn: Sits amidst the petrified men in her lab and studies Muto from Transformation (+20=80 [12]).
Spring: Has the covenfolk plant a garden under the open roof in her living quarters, and uses that location to study Creo from Portia’s Principia Fabricata (+20=39 [8]).
Summer: Sits near various fountains within the covenant while studying Rego from Discipline and Restraint (+20=51 [9]). Tries repeatedly not to giggle at the title.
Autumn: Journeys to the covenant of Aegea with Calliope, seeking information that would help her lift the curse in the regio. Adv.: Order of Hermes Lore, +5=10 (1); Faerie Lore, +2=60 (4).
Correspondence with Calliope: Faerie Lore, +1=61 (2)
Corrrespondence with Salignus: Faerie Lore, +1=62 (2)
Corrrespondence with Theodolphus: Magic Theory, +1=201 (8)
Corrrespondence with Theoros: Magic Theory, +1=202 (8)
Vis Income: 2p An from the covenant, 2p Mu from the faerie wine casks.
Constantine
1226
Winter: Flits about while Viola studies.
Spring: Accompanies Viola in exploring the temple regio, then begins setting up her lab there.
Summer: Finishes setting up the lab.
Autumn: Assists Viola in enchanting the stove for her lab, after trading her three pawns of Ignem vis for three pawns of his Imaginem.
1227
Winter, Spring, and Summer: Flits about while Viola studies.
Autumn: Accompanies Viola on her trip to Aegea.
Scott
I was told very clearly on the forums (in the age old argument about swords not being crosses for S&F bonuses) that my view of allowing them to be created as needed as part of another lab process wasn't cannon, with the added fun of snide segways in the thread. The official line is apparently that the published F&S bonuses are all the Order knows about, and any more need to be discovered through dedicated lab activity. In my opinion that is total malarkey, but that was the line taken at the time. Frankly I think some of the book authors got their noses out of shape because that ruling invalidates an optional rule added in a supplementary book. The way alchemy et-al is treated in Ars is a joke to me, but hey, my sagas have always played differently to RAW.
Having them part of another activity was a way to not make it totally open for new ones on the fly during spont magic casting, and also so that the forum folks who love to make magic overly hard and totally dull still have something to do with their investigation method.
Can you use F&S bonuses for sponting? If so, I suppose that's a reason to use your discovery method. I'm not otherwise especially concerned about staying with canon in this department, though.
Scott
Oh, what was that bit about an optional rule in a supplementary book?
Scott
I used to allow them to be found via lab activity, and also used with spont and formulaic casting. It makes magi more likely to care what they are carrying, and also makes the substances more valuable. The change does make talismans less powerful though. A bonus of +1-5 isn't the end of the earth for spont spells in terms of the game outcomes, and I think its a cool flavour. If a player can just make them up with no effort in game at all, that seems broken.