Sensory magic example spells

Hello fellow players,
I searched on this forum for any thread related to sensory magic but found none really accurate.
I have a sodalis wanting to create that spell, using Sensory magic:

"I'm the vision of your enlightment."

CrCo 95 ritual
Every person who see the caster gain +1 in Intelligence permanently. This effect last 1 year on the caster.
(base 55, personal, year, spectacle)

Obviously, this will give +5 intelligence at anyone in his covenant which magic resistance he can penetrate since everybody is going to see him.
He also has an idea of spell with same base, but at sound range, improving communication, "Here is the example of how you should speak"

Seeing Sensory magic restrictions, do you think that spell can work or not?

The limitation on pg. 27 would seem to hurt his chances, depending on reading. "The effects on all targets ceases with the spell's expiry, no matter how long they have been affected."

(And Intelligence is CrMe, isn't it?)

No, for a whole host of reasons:

Firstly, the sensory magic must somehow involve the emitting of species appropriate to the form of the spell. As an example, an ignem spell cannot be sensory magic via sound, as fires affect people through touch (burning) and spectacle (light). Guideline in HoH:MC p 28. Mentem effects are, therefore, extremely limited in most cases unless the effect itself can be justifiably described as a spectacle within the bounds of Mentem.

Secondly, the CrMe base guideline is not '+1 to stat permanently', but '+1 to stat'. The permanent part comes in from it being a momentary creo ritual on said target. As soon as you make it non-momentary duration it ceases being a 'momentary creo ritual' and thus expires like any other spell. It also doesn't technically have to be a ritual except due to the very high level and year duration.

Edit: This means you could make a magic item with a similar, non-sensory effect that applies said effect for a shorter duration on an environmental trigger. This would be perfectly acceptable, provided that you and your covenfolk don't mind the 5 warping/year you'd get from being around such a device.

Thirdly - and this one I don't have a direct reference to a ruling on so may be completely wrong - a single spell effect from a single spell affects a single target once. Thus while each person who looks at the caster during the year would gain +1 intelligence, they would not continue to gain +1 intelligence every 'tick' of the spell. A second gain would require a second application of the spell - which means a new ritual and a new casting. Even CrIg spells that burn people for multiple rounds adhere to this - because the spell only affects the created target (the fire) once.

And finally... my inner SG just says 'what? No!' :smiley:

The example effects suggest this interpretation is too narrow. See Hibernation of the Slumbering Turb, page 29, a Re(Cr)Me ritual. There are no sleep mentem species transmitted by touch, as far as I know... :wink:

I don't know of any rules either but it sounds right. There does seems to be this unwritten rule (At least I've never seen anything official on it in RAW.) about targets and sustained effects. To liberally quote someone who put it better then I can.
With most spells you can either


This generally prevents the same spell from stacking it's effects twice so it may be what your thinking of. However reading the description of sensory magic as well as the example spells this "rule" may not apply to them. Does this mean that the effects of the same spell could stack maybe but I think it's a really bad idea both for game balance as well as the sake of the targets.

As is this spell gives a target one warping point when they first see the Mage an additional warping point every season and another warping point at the end of the year if they are affected for a whole year. Thats six warping points. Now if a grog with a minus -1 intelligence goes to the full +5 that means he gets thirty-six warping points in one year. Further more alot of people assume that if a buffing spell is cast on a subject with a stat to high for said spell to influence the target is still warped by the spell. That means that anyone who saw the magus just a few hundred times in the first season after he cast it would end up with a warping score in the mid twenties easy.

And finally... my inner SG just says 'what? No!' :smiley:

You are not obliged to consider the duration of year to be the duration for both the effect and the spell. Closed mouth of the night walker has a sun duration for the spell, but perdo is permanent;
should a person be affected by the spell once , he will forget having seen the magus. Should that person see the magus later - while the effect don't penetrate his (new) magic resistance, would he see him or no?
If yes, you make a difference, and that's the spell as i read it.
If no, then you are coherent but then, it's not coherent since sensory magic affect anyone sensing the special sensory medium by appropriate mean (see ReCo marking the territory, which affect anyone coming in contact with the scent, even if longer after the casting of the spell) and should be able to affect more than one time any one sensing multiple times, otherwise, spells like Brilliance of the eagl's plumage would only affect the first time you see him, and none of the sensory spell say so.
Sensory magic description (p27) say: "each of these targets consists of an area of effect. When within this area of effect, anyone sensing the bjornaer magus through the specified sense becomes a target of the spell (...) target need not be present at the casting of the spell, and are continuously acquired throughout the spell's duration".

The part which say "the effects on all target ceases" would be more pertinent, except that, this spell being ritual, and creo, the change can be made permanent, so there is no effect o cease.

Creo + non momentary ritual are not forbidden if you accept the idea of spell which permanently produce things during a duration, something I haven't seen any rule against.

If the guideline says "+1" and it is what it's say, permanently come from the Creo + ritual part, since you can be affected multiple time "continously acquired", then you can affect them more than one time.

Besides, hibernation of the slumbering turb permanently create satiety, since otherwise, it would let the grogs with -1 year of empty stomachs, effectively killing them all, but rather, it says: "when they awaken, they are ravenously hungry". (Well, to be honest, this spell seems so much broken since it use Mentem to assure body nurrishment...)

I do read none rule preventing such. And I find obvious counterexamples:
the aegis affect any thing which try to enter . If a demon tries 1 time per day to enter, he will be affected 365 times. Idem for any ward. Idem for shrouded glen.

Mine too, but I rely on rules and I was lacking them here to say "no" without relying on my opinion only :smiley:

Bjornaer are bad-assed, and don't care about stupid hermetic rules, which only chumps play by anyway.

That's why so many of the cool intellego spells (eye of the Eagle, whispers on wind) are Bjornaer in origin.

Having said that: No. Absolutely not. And under no circumstances, for so many reasons.

1.) You break the Arcane Limit of Stuff I Will Let You Do Before You are Suddenly Eaten By a Giant Dragon. (That's a real part of Hermetic Theory, look it up.)

2.) Creo rituals can only create things with momentary duration. If you did Year duration, it would expire at the end of the year. Perdo has always been an entirely different kettle of fish.

3.) Double dipping. The ritual would effect a change in the mind of the target, but the same change can't happen twice. CreoX gives and increase from A to B; it does not give A+1 (+1) (+1) (+1) indefinately. Each additional +1 requires an additional ritual.

4.) You can't have degrees of seperation in a Ritual Creo spell. The most that would be possible would be a permanent "aura" (spectacle, effect of voice) which gives temporary intellegence boosts (i.e. anyone who listens to Bob talk gets +1 int to up to +3 for duration Sun.)

But mostly, my Dragon of Angry SG (Might 12,642, Second Sight: 87 and an arcane connection to all jackasses who make me angry, being approximately 29 stories high) is licking his chops.

I like 1) :smiley:

If it is going to stack (not that I believe it should), then every time they see him they get their +1 Intelligence up to +5. And even if you already are at +5 the spell will try to give you a +1 and fail. Since it is a 9th magnitude spell, every application will give a point of warping. Warp 10 is 275, crossing his path 5 times a day yields 55 days. But it won't take a week for your grogs to be become magical creatures.

The aegis does only affect its target once during its duration. It is a sustained effect, not an instant one. The target is the covenant/boundary. You don't cast Aegis on the demon.

The target of the ward is the thing being warded, not the thing being warded against.

That said, I've not found the rule written down anywhere - I've just yet to find anything that contradicts it :slight_smile:

Its in the rules, right next to the Limit of Being Suddenly Eaten By A Dragon. Core rulebook, page 6.

Perdo is not necessarily a good example because anything destroyed by Perdo completely is destroyed forever no matter what the duration of the spell. The duration determines how long a spell continues to destroying things not how long they stay destroyed. The spell doesn't have two durations because Permanent is not a duration.

See him? Well yes the spell doesn't make you invisible, remembering him though I would say no. The targets mind is like the hole created with the PeTe spell with the moon duration described on ArM pg 112. The hole can't be filled with dirt for the duration of the spell because the spell destroys any dirt put into it. A mind so affected has just such a hole in it where the "Hey! I just saw that guy." thought is supposed to go. So every time he sees the magus again the spell wipes it away for as long as the duration lasts. A target Individual range Touch spell with a sun duration would work the same way. Their is no need to penetrate the target twice because the spell is still in effect and raising the target's magic resistance is just shutting the barn door after the horse got out.

Again I believe the compulsion to leave the effect of the spell never stops for the entire duration of the spell even if you leave and are forced to come back somehow. So you don't have to be targeted by the spell again to feel the same compulsion. In this case you could even deaden your sense of smell somehow but you still wouldn't be able to enter the area because it's not the smell keeping you away it's the spell you where targeted by and are still affected by.

Or this spell targets you the first time you see the caster and the effect is there for the duration. Just like the other spells there is no reason for the spell to have to penetrate a second time just because your target looks away and back again. As long as the caster keeps the spell going anyone affected sees a blinding light but only when they look directly at the caster that is what the constant effect does. It makes you see a light that isn't really there coming from something that isn't really glowing. (For those who don't have a copy of the spell handy the description specifically says that the caster doesn't really give off light. Those affected just get an eyeful of lumens magically)

This is important because if your character makes all his rolls and doesn't get blinded when looking at the caster again he only sees a blinding light but probably can't see the caster. Just like how you can't see the little tungsten wires in most incandecent light bulbs. (Heck the one by my desk isn't even very bright and all I see is a glowy yellow spot when I look at it. And I certainly don't have to make a botchable blindness check ever time I..Aw crap time to go see the optometrist 8) ) So the character would never be targeted twice by this spell because as long as it is in effect he will not be able to see the caster blind or not. Heck this spell would actually prevent any other Spectacle spells the caster tries from working.

Actually the description of Creo (ArM pg 77) does say that anything you create with creo disappears when the duration expires. Momentary Creo rituals are the exception to this. I can see no other exceptions given under the duration rules on page 112.

Yes there are spells that can affect something then stop affecting it then affect it again (something sensory magic might not be able to do BTW) but are there any example spells that specifically allow the direct effects of a single casting to stack in the way your players spell does.

Thanks for the good arguments.

With all of this, I could refuse his spell , light hearted :slight_smile: